Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

ros wrote-

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a lot of twisted gibberish in pursuit of attention.

Examples please. 10 at least. You did say "a lot". Not Connie's. Mine.
Without any we all know where the "gibberish" resides.

What's the difference between gibberish and twisted gibberish. Isn't "twisted" a wasted word and wasted words prove to warn etc. And padding--make the sentence longer-hallmark of attention seekers. And assertion--hallmark of having nothing to say. Saying something when having nothing to say--hallmark of desperate attention seekers.

And projection--big,bright,flashing neon sign.

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spew

Is it just me who "spews". Don't I do the same as everybody else?

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pompous confused troll sort of way,

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In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls.

I've not just "come in". I haven't ever called anybody else a troll. You have. I'm not confused. I don't argue against my own interests. Male anti-IDers do unless they are kinky. Pompous is a value judgement generally but insisting on posting with nothing to say is objectively pompous.More projection.

What's "sort of way" for? Escape clause maybe. i.e.wimpy.

Is that what you meant?

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AUSTRALIA UPDATE

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Christian theory not science: MP
(Jason Koutsoukis, Australia, The Age, August 13, 2006)

THE controversial theory of "intelligent design" has been ridiculed
by Federal Education and Science Minister Julie Bishop, who says it should not be taught in schools.

Her views are a major setback for conservative Christian groups who have mounted a concerted campaign to have "intelligent design" taught alongside evolution in school science courses.

Intelligent design, damned by critics as junk science, argues that life on Earth is too complex to have evolved purely through Darwin's theory of natural selection.

"I have had submissions in relation to this matter and as the minister for
science I can state that it's my view that it is not part of a science
curriculum," Ms Bishop said.

"If, however, there are those who wish certain subjects to be taught or certain aspects or themes to be taught to their students, then that's a matter for parents to take up with individual schools or education authorities," she said.

"But as minister for science, no, I would not advocate it be part of science
courses." Ms Bishop's comments represent a comprehensive denunciation of the views of her predecessor Brendan Nelson, who last year endorsed "intelligent design" being taught alongside evolution. Dr Nelson also said he had met the group Campus Crusade for Christ, the Australian advocates of intelligent design, or ID, and said he had been impressed by a DVD called Unlocking the Mystery of Life they had presented to him.

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wande-

I thought Connie's diatribe about the lying liberal media to be quite accurate although I wouldn't go along with her Judgement Day idea. The Judgement Day will come in the here and the now of your children and grandchildren when the amoral, (what else), scientific materialism unravels.

Think on this from Burgess's You've Had Your Time. He was in his old stamping grounds in Malaysia (Malaya) making a movie.

"Walking the dark streets of Ipoh at night I was accosted by a Chinese girl of exceptional beauty. She offered me not herself but a kind of born-again Christianity. 'Repent,' she pleaded. 'Do repent. Follow the way.' Not the tao but the literal word of the Bible. She was near-hysterical in her evangelistic fury. She frightened me. Ipoh, made rich on tin and rubber, had yawned its huge vacuum at her, and she was filling it with the only thing she could find. All I could do was accept one of her ill-printed hand-outs, with a crude drawing of a Chinese Jesus dripping black blood, and promise to repent."

Earlier he had talked about Islam filling this spiritual vacuum and filling it with the wrong substance. Europe has a 1000 years of mystical traditions
to provide a soft landing into that yawn but the poor colonials went from the jungle to the computer and the supermarket in a flash. And it is the young of the masses who have such an ache as the Chinese girl. The elites of those regions never took Islam seriously.

Are you ready in the US for that yawn bearing in mind that you are always the biggest and the best?

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True to form, our beloved, ever-dependable spendi wrote:

(some typically atopical inananity)

<YAWN>

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Those are not words I ever wrote.

I don't think "atopical" is in my vocabulary. Not even now. But "typical" "inanity" must be near the surface for them to spring so readily to mind.

It matters not that I yawn too. It's the masses yawning I'm talking about.
Novelty is running within the higher asymptote as attention spans are running within the lower. I'm a fading dandelion with my sugar stealers being gradually torn loose.

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OHIO UPDATE

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Evolution backers seek to influence election

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Juxtaposing that with paragraph I quoted from Mr Burgess,from the point of view of taking the reader seriously, is laughable.

Why "headed up" rather than "led".

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Lawrence Krauss, director of the Center for Education and Research in Cosmology and Astrophysics at Case Western Reserve University.

I bet that had Lawrence straighting his tie before the mirror.

Isn't the "Help" in Help Ohio Public Education something of a brass necked assertion. A theft of the word actually.And a theft of "HOPE" as well. Which side is "helping" public education is the crux of the dispute isn't it? Some might say Hinder Ohio Public Education. Or does the side AP supports, for obvious commercial reasons, have a monopoly on assertions. The answer to that is either Yes or No and if the latter, which we had better hope is the case, they are back shouting assertions at each other.

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There is no trust among any of us.

Charming. How very nice for the kids. It must be wonderful to be having one's precious education managed by people who don't trust each other.

Can anybody explain why some members of the board are appointed by the Govenor. There must be a reason/s. With the elected members divided one assumes that the Govenor's appointees can swing all votes.Thus elections are a waste of time. What are the actual numbers. "The others" is hardly scientific. Guessing from the figures given might arrive at 8 or 9 Govenor appointed members and 10 or 11 elected ones who are split 6 to 4 or somesuch and therefore effectively neutralised and only there for the piss-ups and the preenings. Have I got that wrong.

No wonder G.R. Schloemer only "thinks" that what we are seeing is grass roots democracy at work. But it sounds good if you don't notice the "thinks".

And the same for "hoping" in

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The group is hoping to run former Democratic U.S. Rep. Tom Sawyer against her.

The "thinks" and the "hoping" render both statements meaningless.

If the board voted 11-4 in February where were the other 4 members. Playing golf maybe. Too busy eh? How many of the 11 were the Govenor's appointees?

Has the February vote been put into effect in the classrooms yet?

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I wouldn't argue with that.

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Wandel"s quote from The Age

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Intelligent design, damned by critics as junk science, argues that life on Earth is too complex to have evolved purely through Darwin's theory of natural selection.

When you come down to it, this is all the IDers "have got in their quiver". They are neithrt able to advance any scientific argument nor present any data in support of this "assertion". Its what Ive always called their attempts at some kind of compelling story. ID is totally"Fact Free"

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farmerman wrote:

Wandel"s quote from The Age
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Intelligent design, damned by critics as junk science, argues that life on Earth is too complex to have evolved purely through Darwin's theory of natural selection.

When you come down to it, this is all the IDers "have got in their quiver". They are neithrt able to advance any scientific argument nor present any data in support of this "assertion". Its what Ive always called their attempts at some kind of compelling story. ID is totally"Fact Free"

And the only way to support the "assertion" seems to be with irreducible complexity; itself an as yet mythical beast.

To date, nothing has been shown to be irreducibly complex, and I'm not even sure you could prove something to be logically irreducibly complex, so why do they try? Just to add more smoke to the mirrors I guess.

If something could be absolutely proven to be irreducibly complex, then I guess it would be curtains for pure Darwinian natural selection. But since evolution is blindingly obvious to anyone who isn't cloistered in denial, it's actually the impossibility of irreducible complexity which is fait accompli.

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If something were shown to be irreducibly complex, then the entire theistic evolution WOULD have one argument that could be forwarded as a scientific theory.

However, as you say, we aint found one yet.

I was reading a small paper (a self published Gamish, by Behe) In it, he starts with the posit that "assuming that irreducible complexity of blood clotting enzyme reactions occur in the sequence we(read, "I") have concluded, then (he said,and Im paraphrasing) The nascent point of the origin of life that is equipped with the heame group has been designed.

Ken Miller, in a high school text no less, had shot that one down by showing that several vertebrate life forms live happily without the extreme complexity of the enzyme cascade of the haem group found in pangids and homo. . There appears to be evidence of a whole suite of blood clotting mechanisms that dont rely on the sequence proposed by Behe and yet blood of fish and mice , clot quite nicely.

Behes not left with many IC examples anymore.

Hes lost on the eye.

I was watching a show on the Canadian Discovery channel last night , In it, (I caught the end) they were doing a show about sabre toothed cats ( I know we had a thread a while ago) but this ethologist had stated that we have evidence from statistical sampling that the "Clouded Leopard" of somewhere in Asia, is starting to show "sabretoothness" after just several generations. He accounts the feature to stealth huinting skills and the art of a quickkill. And , as Eldgredge said,(and this guy quoted) 'An animal so finely adapted to a specific niche is also held prisoner to it'. He meant that, should the environment change to open savannah, stealth would perhaps lose to speed and sabretootness would go extinct yet again.

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ros and fm-

Are you just writing for writing's sake?

We have done all that. I can't think why anybody would dispute what you are both saying although I'm a bit surprised that you give so much credence to a TV programme.

The individual self reacts to the "other" in various ways. Sense perceptions and the application of logic to them is only part of the picture. There are also feelings and emotions. One might even say that being satisfied with explanations about tigers is an emotional response because the application of logic (and teleology and TV which supports the self) allows those who are so satisfied to deal with their own emotional needs.

Mr Burgess's Chinese girl likewise and his acute reaction to her which timber dismissed with a wisecrack and others have simply ignored.

Human beings have self consciousness and a knowledge of the vast and threatening world and also of their individual destiny and powerlessness in the face of it.

What comfort is available for them in screeds about blood clotting in organisms they never see or in tiger's teeth in times of morbid introspection or distress.

Are you sure that anti-IDers are not "cloistered in denial" of the power of emotions as Spock, and others, have been portrayed as being. Some in real life manifestations. Could there not be an emotional need in anti-IDers to remove the comforts from those who need it, who are in the vast majority, and for no reason unless they can demonstrate that beneficial social consequences will result.

Do anti-IDers have an emotional need to maintain that ID equates with Creationism which it doesn't. Do they have an emotional need to be different and to be "right" without any reference to the possible consequences and to focus on "evidence" which supports their case.

What explanation has anti-ID for the emotional response to music and grandeur in scenery and architecture. Wouldn't a consistent anti-IDer demolish the White House and replace it with a building of pure material function? One doesn't need a vast and expensive dome to keep the rain out. There are millions of things in our lives which satisfy our emotional needs,such as ladies fashions and style in artefacts like cars, and which a scientific materialist would see as complete waste.

What does scientific materialism put forward to deal with emotions. Soylent Green offered a proposal for dealing with death and it was perfectly logical. Protein is protein after all and cost effectiveness does the rest.

The only reason the anti-ID position is not laughed off the scene is that its proponents are hiding behind the comforts of a culture steeped in religious feeling whether overtly practised or not and indulge the luxury of point blank refusing to describe the "Naked Lunch" we will get if we buy into their emotion-free menu for the precise reason that they cannot face up to the prospect themselves

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I think Im gonna go down to the bakery and get a blueberry muffin and a cup of decaf.

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I think I've figured it out - spendi's using an AI text generator - one of those programs that spews out essentially gramatically correct, seemingly coherent, though actually meaningless paragraphs upon being fed a keyword or two.

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Poor old anti-IDers.

Nothing to say. One leaves the room saying something "smart" to save his face and the other makes up some stuff on his own account to save his face.

The Supreme Court would ask the usher to escort both from the premises while they considered what I had said which I would of course expand without the aid of any fantasies about text generation. That sort of dual pronged tosh is only suitable for little meeting halls out in the boonies at which a handful of "awkward squad" progressives are in attendance.

It's nice to know that timber only "thinks" it. A shortage of committment is signalled by the word.

Have you seen this new scientific study about the female sex drive falling off rapidly once the early capture gush has dissipated. A lot of lies have been told about that and it has been well known since Ovid. It's an example of the scientific truth being glossed over in order to provide efficient social functioning. Something to do with the measuring of phenylethylamine in living women not exotic marine organisms of fossils.
Don't you know that women hate monogamy? And for very obvious and perfectly justifiable reasons. Teach that in your evolution classes.

Turn it in boys or else answer the post.

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Remember, spendi: an accurate diagnosis is the first step towards successful treatment.

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Sorry- since Homer and Shakespeare is full of it.

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farmerman wrote:

Eldgredge said,(and this guy quoted) 'An animal so finely adapted to a specific niche is also held prisoner to it'.

That's a nice quote.

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spendius wrote:

ros and fm-

Are you just writing for writing's sake?

Of course.

The discussion of whether ID was science or religion was answered from a scientific point of view very early in the thread, and then the legal case was confirmed by a judge. This case was closed almost before it started.

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ARKANSAS UPDATE

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Many Arkansas candidates say intelligent design in schools is OK
(Associated Press, August 14, 2006)

LITTLE ROCK - Many candidates for statewide office - including Democratic gubernatorial nominee Mike Beebe - say information on intelligent design should be available to students alongside curriculum on evolution theory.

"I believe in intelligent design and I don't think intelligent design and evolution are mutually exclusive," Beebe, the state's attorney general, told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

Intelligent design says some features of the universe are so well-ordered and complex that an intelligent cause is the best way to explain them. Most scientists view it as a new form of creationism.

A federal judge in December banned a local school board in Dover, Pa., from teaching intelligent design alongside evolution in high school biology classes because it would violate the separation of church and state. The judge called intelligent design religion masquerading as science.

Most Republican candidates in Arkansas told the newspaper that teachers shouldn't be required to teach intelligent design - but that "academic freedom" should allow instructors to address the subject in class.

"Asa sees this as an issue of academic freedom, and he believes teachers should have the option to teach another viewpoint if there is scientific support for that viewpoint," said David Kinkade, a spokesman for GOP gubernatorial candidate Asa Hutchinson.

Beebe said information about intelligent design "should be available to Arkansas students."

"This would provide Arkansas students background they need to wrestle with these and other fundamental questions as they become adults," he said. "I believe both should be available because one is the consensus theory of the scientific community, and the other is the predominant belief of most Arkansans and Americans."

Intelligent design is not listed within the state's science curriculum - and teachers are expected to teach within that curriculum, said Julie Johnson Thompson, a spokeswoman for the Arkansas Department of Education.
Attorney general candidate Dustin McDaniel and lieutenant governor candidate Bill Halter, both Democrats, each said science should dictate what should be taught in the classroom.

"It's not the purpose of science classes to teach religion," Halter said. "It's the purpose of science classes to teach science."

Their Republican rivals, attorney general candidate Gunner DeLay and lieutenant governor nominee Jim Holt, both say teachers should have the option to address intelligent design.

Holt called evolution a "fraud theory" and said that keeping intelligent design out of the classroom is censorship.

"It is not scientific to censor other theories or hypotheses," he said.

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Timber-Your thought had occured to me also. The spendid one often lays out what sounds like stuff out of an AI phrase generator. .

WANDEL-This line freom the ARk clip was priceless.

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"Asa sees this as an issue of academic freedom, and he believes teachers should have the option to teach another viewpoint if there is scientific support for that viewpoint," said David Kinkade, a spokesman for GOP gubernatorial candidate Asa Hutchinson.

What ASA really means is.\
"If we had BACON, We could have bacon and eggs, If we had EGGS"

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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