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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jul, 2006 09:37 am
spendius wrote:
Our lovely Queen is currently on a birthday cruise around the beautiful Western islands in a hired ship and nobody is thinking of voting her out and I daresay that is costing £10,000 a night,at least.


Of course "nobody is thinking of voting her out"! The Queen was never elected in the first place!
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 04:23 am
wande-

If the monarchy is ever got rid of it will be by a vote. They had one in Australia. There is a small but vocal faction here which occasionally calls for a referendum on the issue.

There are other ways of voting which perhaps you are not familiar with.

Of course The Queen was voted in. How do you think the monarchy was restored after Charles 1 had his head chopped off. There are other ways of voting than the comfort zone method you are used to.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 09:23 am
spendi wrote:
There are other ways of voting than the comfort zone method you are used to.

spendi, There is nothing comfortable about Bush except for die-hard conservatives that are blind to all the destruction created by this looney.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 11:17 am
c.i.

I am extremely sorry to see that you have had an re-occurence of blurtergobenza and I do hope you recover quickly.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 11:20 am
spendi, Your inability to respond directly to my statement only shows how weak your posts - always.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 11:36 am
c.i.

I didn't see anything which lent itself to a response I'm afraid.

Quote:
spendi, There is nothing comfortable about Bush except for die-hard conservatives that are blind to all the destruction created by this looney.


What can anyone say about such an outburst?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 12:19 pm
The only "outburst" is from the insurgency and Israel.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 12:26 pm
Do they not both have their reasons which they hold fast to just as you do to yours.

If those reasons are not fully understood that is no justification for calling them loonies.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 12:41 pm
Strapping a bomb to your body and killing innocents that had nothing to do with your own misery is "looney." Especially too, because they believe their god will reward them with virgins when received in heaven.

Killing ten times more innocents to fight Hezbollah is "looney."

spendi, You need to get out more often from your pub cocoon to understand what the "real" world is like.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 01:24 pm
Look mate-

I go to the pub for the last hour or so every night. It is 10.45 pm when I get there.

I know all about the real world. It's all inevitable. It's built in. The best chance was Suez and your arguments are one of the causes of US intransigence at the time.

Eden saw the importance of oil. For sure lots of others knew oil was important. Eden saw it was VITAL.

On that argument the innocent lives saved then were bought at the cost of all the others since.

And that might happen again. Accelerating.

And it isn't easy. Mr Bush will be just as saddened as you but statesmen have to be statesmen. They can't afford these easy answers.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 01:53 pm
They can't afford easy answers when their incompetence creates magnanimous problems for the whole world. They didn't worry about an exist strategy for one.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 05:07 pm
That's a marvellous Freudian slip.

Their incompetence is a natural human failing. Unavoidable. The US spends more than any other nation in history trying to find the right man.

Are you saying you are all mugs?

All that money,all that razzamattaz and all that energy and you got a "loony". That's mugs goodstyle.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 26 Jul, 2006 05:21 pm
No, spendi. When anybody plans to go to war based on a preemptive attack on another country that will kill innocent people, most people of good will and common sense expects the leaders not to make stupid mistakes like moron Bushco.


My decisions have never killed any one - even the stupid ones I made.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Thu 27 Jul, 2006 04:36 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
No, spendi. When anybody plans to go to war based on a preemptive attack on another country that will kill innocent people, most people of good will and common sense expects the leaders not to make stupid mistakes like moron Bushco.


Or at least have a decent exit strategy.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 27 Jul, 2006 08:00 am
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
Incumbent, foes for state board seat differ on evolution, local control
(By Melissa Shuman, DeSoto Explorer, July 27, 2006)

Controversy has earned 3rd District Kansas State School Board member John Bacon plenty of company on next Tuesday's primary ballot.

The seat on the board that has made national headlines for changing the state science standards on evolution has attracted a total of four candidates to the race this year, all from Olathe. District 3 incumbent John Bacon, who is part of the board's conservative majority, has served for eight years. His challengers -- Republicans Harry McDonald and Dave Oliphant and Democrat Don Weiss -- all disagree with Bacon's views and are determined to unseat him. Tuesday's election will determine who will run against Democrat Don Weiss.

As a former educator, McDonald was one of the founding members of the Kansas Citizens for Science. The organization's focus has been to ensure that the state science standards are in the best interest of students, McDonald said. He was himself a science teacher for 30 years in the Blue Valley school district and now works at Greenbush, a long-distance education group.

McDonald said he's been to six state school board meetings since he began his campaign in January. He said he's also contacted all of the area superintendents to learn about their school districts.

"I knew I was going to have to work hard," he said. "Bacon has gotten re-elected because he's had a base that gets out and votes. More reasonable candidates tend to get elected when you have a large turnout, so that's what I've been working toward."

The candidates have all had a variety of chances to meet voters and to debate issues. They met voters in De Soto High School last month during a learning session on how Kansas funds its schools.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 27 Jul, 2006 08:27 am
U.S. CONGRESS UPDATE

Quote:
Democrats Oppose Bill Denying Attorneys' Fees
(BY JOSH GERSTEIN, New York Sun, July 27, 2006)

Democratic lawmakers in the House are expressing strong opposition to legislation that would deny attorneys' fees to individuals and groups who win cases challenging government actions as a violation of the Constitution's prohibition on the establishment of religion.

"In more than a century, nothing like this has ever been done," Rep. Jerrold Nadler of Manhattan and Queens warned as the House Judiciary Committee debated and considered amendments to the proposed Public Expression of Religion Act. "We would be telling government officials everywhere that Congress thinks it's okay to violate people's religious liberty with impunity," he said.

The bill's chief sponsor, Rep. John Hostettler, a Republican of Indiana, said it is needed because the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups have used the threat of large legal fee awards to intimidate local governments into dropping religious references in seals, monuments, and elsewhere. "They capitulate to these organizations and their often questionable pronouncement of what is or isn't constitutional," the congressman said. "I believe it's time to bring this extortion to an end."

Mr. Nadler accused Republicans backing the legislation of adopting the anti-judiciary campaign tactics of a segregationist Alabama governor and presidential candidate, George Wallace. "The governor would feel right at home with the sponsors of this bill today," Mr. Nadler said.

Mr. Hostettler insisted that his measure was not aimed at keeping anyone out of court, but encouraging local officials to contest such litigation. "The purpose is not to eliminate establishment clause cases from being adjudicated. In fact, it is just the opposite," he said.

The Indiana congressman said more such cases would allow new Supreme Court justices to clarify puzzling rulings, such as a pair last year upholding a Ten Commandments display in Texas while striking down another in Kentucky. "The jurisprudence in Establishment Clause cases is about as clear as mud," he said.

The Judiciary Committee rejected a series of amendments offered by Democrats, including a proposal by Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee of Texas to treat attorneys' fees in church-state lawsuits the same way as fees in actions challenging eminent domain seizures. Many Republicans favor awarding fees to successful litigants in such takings suits.

"Freedom of religion is at least as important as private property," Ms. Jackson-Lee argued.

"To say the First Amendment is less valuable than the Fifth Amendment, surely, we would not want to say that," Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat of California, said. The committee defeated Ms. Jackson-Lee's proposal, 11 to 19.

A veterans' group, the American Legion, has pushed for the legislation out of concern that war memorials and cemeteries could be cleansed of religious symbols. Mr. Nadler called the gravestone issue a "red herring" and submitted a letter in which the ACLU said it would "vigorously defend" the rights of veterans to use any religious symbol they choose on grave markers. The letter did not address the use of Christian crosses in publicly owned group memorials or tombs for unknown soldiers.

The House Republican leadership has made the bill part of an "American Values" agenda aimed at helping the party prevail in this fall's election.

"It's Orwellian that this would fall under the umbrella of ?'American Values,'" Rep. Christopher Van Hollen, a Democrat of Maryland, said. "I can't think of anything that turns history on its head more than what we're working on."

After more than an hour of debate yesterday, the committee adjourned before taking an up-or-down vote on the bill.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Jul, 2006 10:04 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Democratic lawmakers in the House are expressing strong opposition to legislation that would deny attorneys' fees


I should jolly well think so too! Who ever heard of denying attorneys their fees? That's disgusting!

Their wives won't be able to shop till they drop and retail sales will take a nose dive and manufacturing orders will decline and the Dow will start rolling downhill and the fees of others will have to be denied and their wives won't be able to shop till they drop and retail sales will plummet and factories shut and the pensions will have to be revalued as the Dow decelerates and you can read the rest in the Book of Revelations.

On the other hand


Quote:
. "We would be telling government officials everywhere that Congress thinks it's okay to violate people's religious liberty with impunity,"


would lead, it seems to me, to states or even smaller units deciding for themselves; Congress having washed its hands of the matter. Which is accepting some of my positions.

But then again that would reduce attorney's fees not by denying them to them formally but by desuetude and the wives etc (see above).

And this thread might come to the quiet rest which it seems to be doing now that the anti-IDers have seemingly packed up their tents and slunk off into the undergrowth leaving the field clear for the argument that ID is science in the sense that it is the logical application of reason to a process which is not noted for responding to the logical application of reason with a view to providing social consequences which are beneficial the the material health of the nation.

Of course,one is using the definition of "science" here which is held by the common run of humanity so as not to make any distasteful suggestions that ID is technology.

At it's most common it is anything which can be described using long unusual lexical formations characterised by a profusion of hard consonant sounds and short staccato vovels as a metaphor for chest puffing and which provides such things as domestic appliances which allow wives to shop till they drop and retail sales to boom and so on and so forth ever upwards into the sunny uplands.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 27 Jul, 2006 11:35 am
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
Intelligent-design proponent distorts foes' views
(Keith B. Miller, Kansas Citizens for Science)

John Calvert, contributor to the science standards adopted by the Kansas Board of Education and director of the Intelligent Design Network, has recently been making false public charges against Kansas Citizens for Science, and the science and educational organizations that have opposed the current standards.

Calvert, the organizer of the hearings set up by the board on the issue, has charged that our group has been used "to promote a materialist world view that seeks to demean the idea of creation."

As a board member for Kansas Citizens for Science and an evangelical Christian, I believe that God is always creatively active in the natural world, and upholds the very existence of physical reality.

There are also several other Christians on the state board, as well as members with other religious views.

It is Calvert and the intelligent-design proponents, not our group or the Kansas scientific or educational communities, who are responsible for promoting an atheistic view of science. They falsely equate the "methodological naturalism" of science with philosophical materialism and portray it as supporting atheism.

The term "methodological naturalism" was actually coined in 1986 by Paul deVries, an evangelical Christian philosopher at Wheaton College. The term was intended to specifically argue against materialism and to emphasize that science cannot make assertions about the existence or nonexistence of God.

This understanding of science is widely recognized by the scientific community and was the basis for the description of science in the standards as proposed by the appointed standards revision committee. But it was rejected by the board majority.

Calvert also charges that Kansas Citizens for Science has a strategy to promote "unguided evolutionary change." But it was the intelligent-design supporters that inserted the "unguided" language into the standards against the recommendation of the standards committee.

The changes to the description of evolution reinforce the false popular view that evolution rejects meaning and purpose in the universe. However, science cannot state that evolutionary processes are not directed by God or are without divine purpose.

As a parent, I do not want my child told in science class that evolution is a meaningless and purposeless process that God has nothing to do with.

Ironically, the current standards, and those who rewrote and supported them, would ask that teachers do just that. In their misguided attempt to make God a part of science, they have instead instructed teachers to teach evolution as a Godless process. How very sad.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 28 Jul, 2006 07:48 am
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
State school board's actions fire up its foes
(By DAVID KLEPPER, Kansas City Star, July 28, 2006)

You can forgive Ken Willard and Connie Morris if they feel as if there are political bull's-eyes on their backs.

They've been targets ever since Morris, Willard and the four other members of the Kansas Board of Education's conservative majority voted to adopt science curriculum standards that cast doubt on the theory of evolution. Now, nearly a year later, Morris and Willard are fighting to keep their seats on the board against motivated primary opponents.

Evolution is not the only issue. Last year, the board's conservatives pushed through the hiring of Bob Corkins, an anti-tax activist and attorney with no experience in the education field, as education commissioner.

This year, the board's conservatives took up sex education, encouraging local schools to require permission slips for the class and stressing the teaching of abstinence. They also voiced support for charter schools, which critics say would divert tax dollars from public schools.

Yet despite the criticism and the candidates who have lined up against them, Morris said most of the voters she talks to in her western Kansas district support what the board's majority has done.

"There are a lot of good people out there who are very frustrated with what's going on in the public schools," Morris said.

Five of the 10 Board of Education seats are up for grabs this year ?- two of those are in the Kansas City area. The other three races, however, may be where the battle over the Board of Education will be decided.

Every conservative incumbent running for re-election faces a moderate primary challenge. Should they survive the primary, each will face a Democratic challenger in the general election. If moderate candidates can take two of the three races, they'll take control of the board.

All of the board's wrangling led many to predict a big voter turnout. Yet candidates say that even with all the controversy that the board has generated, they're surprised to meet residents who aren't even aware of the election.

"I wish I could say that the state school board is the first thing on people's minds, but it's not," said Sally Cauble, Morris' primary opposition in the board's 5th District race. "It's: ?'You mean we vote on Aug. 1?'

The winner will face Democrat Tim Cruz in November.

In District 7, which includes south-central Kansas, Willard faces GOP primary opponents M.T. Liggett and Donna Viola, who has the endorsement of moderate groups. The winner will face former state lawmaker Jack Wempe, a Democrat, in November.

In District 9, incumbent Iris Van Meter is not seeking another term; Brad Patzer, her son-in-law, will square off against Jana Shaver, supported by the moderates, in the GOP primary. The winner faces Democrat Charles Kent Runyan in the general election.

Incumbents Morris and Willard said that all the attention given to evolution, Corkins and sex education has obscured the board's accomplishments: new statistical ways to track student performance, a host of updated curriculum standards and efforts to better prepare high school graduates for the job market.

"The sensational news just discourages the process," Morris said. "They (the public) aren't aware of the positive things that are happening."

Willard said he wants the board to move past the contentious debates, but he worries that they'll only continue if conservatives lose control of the board. He said he wants to see the board work on challenges such as teacher retention and training, and new curricula designed to compete in a global economy.

"Once we get past this election, if we can keep some continuity, I think we can really accomplish a lot," he said.

His opponent, Viola, said Kansas shouldn't forget or forgive the board's controversies.

"People are not moving on. We've been laughed at on the late-night talk shows," she said. "People are just fed up with it."

Although Patzer said he's met a lot of residents who don't know the issues, the ones who do all talk about the race's 800-pound gorilla ?- evolution.

"If people have formed an opinion on the Board of Education, it's about the science standards," Patzer said. "It's not Bob Corkins. It's not sex ed. It's evolution."

Special interest groups are taking an active role in the campaigns. Teachers organizations, the Mainstream Coalition and Kansas Citizens for Science are going head to head with groups including the Intelligent Design Network and the Discovery Institute, both critical of evolution, as well as advocates of charter schools and vouchers.

The ID Network is hosting a series of forums across the state this week to drum up support for the science standards.

"It's clear that the science standards are an issue in this election, so we're just trying to make sure voters get the complete information," said John Calvert, the group's director.

Morris said she expects that if the conservatives are defeated at the polls, "the science standards will be removed within an hour" of the new board's first meeting.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:19 am
shpendi again
Quote:
And this thread might come to the quiet rest which it seems to be doing now that the anti-IDers have seemingly packed up their tents and slunk off into the undergrowth leaving the field clear for the argument that ID is science in the sense that it is the logical application of reason to a process which is not noted for responding to the logical application of reason with a view to providing social consequences which are beneficial the the material health of the nation.
And, mightI say that this was all one sentence of spendi-speak. Spendi , now I know you cannot be a scientist as you claim (unless your a Christian SCientist). For you appeal to the application of "reason" SCience has never done that.As science moved on beyond collecting butterflies and became a means to make predictions, weve seen much that is counter-intuitive. What amt of reason was responsible for the really big finds of the 20th century, hardly any> It was evidence based and evidence often ran so far askew of reason that as Dr Feynman said."It not only leaves us with a world we canot imagine, It leaves us with a world that we cannot imagine that we cannot imagine"


Wandel- The conservatives always do soemthing to shoot their etire foot off. They will looad so much onto their platform, that itll no doubt break from the additions of all these moral pork patties.

Also, any update on the Hostetter bill that would deny legal fees to the "winners" of cases brought against religious based traditions, rules , or in the caase of ID, some dumass group wanting a Creation centered science uriculum
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