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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 24 Jun, 2006 08:03 am
A new book makes criticisms of string theory that seem to parallel some of the criticisms of intelligent design theory.

Quote:
Has string theory tied up better ideas in physics?
(By SHARON BEGLEY, The Wall Street Journal, 06-23-2006)

Nobel physicist Wolfgang Pauli didn't suffer fools gladly. Fond of calling colleagues' work "wrong" or "completely wrong," he saved his worst epithet for work so sloppy and speculative it is "not even wrong."

That's how mathematician Peter Woit of Columbia University describes string theory. In his book, "Not Even Wrong," published in the U.K. this month and due in the U.S. in September, he calls the theory "a disaster for physics."

A year or two ago, that would have been a fringe opinion, motivated by sour grapes over not sitting at physics' equivalent of the cool kids' table. But now, after two decades in which string theory has been the doyenne of best-seller lists and the dominant paradigm in particle physics, Mr. Woit has company.

"When it comes to extending our knowledge of the laws of nature, we have made no real headway" in 30 years, writes physicist Lee Smolin of the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Canada, in his book, "The Trouble with Physics," also due in September. "It's called hitting the wall."

He blames string theory for this "crisis in particle physics," the branch of physics that tries to explain the most fundamental forces and building blocks of the world.

String theory, which took off in 1984, posits that elementary particles such as electrons are not points, as standard physics had it. They are, instead, vibrations of one-dimensional strings 1/100 billion billionth the size of an atomic nucleus. Different vibrations supposedly produce all the subatomic particles from quarks to gluons. Oh, and strings exist in a space of 10, or maybe 11, dimensions. No one knows exactly what or where the extra dimensions are, but assuming their existence makes the math work.

String theory, proponents said, could reconcile quantum mechanics (the physics of subatomic particles) and gravity, the longest-distance force in the universe. That impressed particle physicists no end. In the 1980s, most jumped on the string bandwagon and since then, stringsters have written thousands of papers.

But one thing they haven't done is coax a single prediction from their theory. In fact, "theory" is a misnomer, since unlike general relativity theory or quantum theory, string theory is not a concise set of solvable equations describing the behavior of the physical world. It's more of an idea or a framework.

Partly as a result, string theory "makes no new predictions that are testable by current _ or even currently conceivable _ experiments," writes Prof. Smolin. "The few clean predictions it does make have already been made by other" theories.

Worse, the equations of string theory have myriad solutions, an extreme version of how the algebraic equation X2 4 has two solutions (2 and -2). The solutions arise from the fact that there are so many ways to "compactify" its extra dimensions _ to roll them up so you get the three spatial dimensions of the real world. With more than 10 raised to 500th power (1 followed by 500 zeros) ways to compactify, there are that many possible universes.

"There is no good insight into which is more likely," concedes physicist Michael Peskin of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.

If string theory made a prediction that didn't accord with physical reality, stringsters could say it's correct in one of these other universes. As a result, writes Prof. Smolin, "string theory cannot be disproved." By the usual standards, that would rule it out as science.

String theory isn't any more wrong than preons, twistor theory, dynamical triangulations, or other physics fads. But in those cases, physicists saw the writing on the wall and moved on. Not so in string theory.

"What is strange is that string theory has survived past the point where it should have been clear that it wouldn't work," says Mr. Woit. Not merely survived, but thrived. Virtually every young mathematically inclined particle theorist must sign on to the string agenda to get an academic job. By his count, of 22 recently tenured professors in particle theory at the six top U.S. departments, 20 are string theorists.

One physicist commented on Mr. Woit's blog that Ph.D. students who choose mathematical theory topics that "are non-string are seriously harming their career prospects."

To be fair, string theory can claim some success. A 1985 paper showed that if you compactify extra dimensions in a certain way, the number of quarks and leptons you get is exactly the number found in nature. "This is the only idea out there for why the number of quarks and leptons is what it is," says Prof. Peskin. Still, that is less a prediction of string theory than a consequence.

If fewer physicists were tied to strings might some of the enduring mysteries of the universe be solved? Might we know why there is more matter than antimatter? Why the proton's mass is 1,836 times the electron's? Why the 18 key numbers in the standard model of fundamental particles have the values they do?

"With smart people pursuing these questions, more might have been answered," says Mr. Woit. "Too few really good people have been working on anything other than string theory."

That string theory abandoned testable predictions may be its ultimate betrayal of science.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 24 Jun, 2006 08:41 am
Imagine getting your head round this-

Quote:
String theory, which took off in 1984, posits that elementary particles such as electrons are not points, as standard physics had it. They are, instead, vibrations of one-dimensional strings 1/100 billion billionth the size of an atomic nucleus. Different vibrations supposedly produce all the subatomic particles from quarks to gluons. Oh, and strings exist in a space of 10, or maybe 11, dimensions. No one knows exactly what or where the extra dimensions are, but assuming their existence makes the math work.


on long nights in the student's dorm cruddling your brains when you could have been playing rounders with the girls and then running around telling everybody what a clever dick you are and some of them believing you way back in the 80's and then in comes Peter Woit of Columbia University describing it all as one big load of bollocks putting physics back 30 years.

You couldn't help but draw the conclusion that Mr Woit thinks you had a "belief" on your hands and one that united a certain number of people under the holy banner of string theory which adds up to a Religion replete with a hierarchy of peers reviewing each other, a mumbo-jumbo mishmash of bullshit, ceremonies, pecking orders, novices but no sacred vestments on account of having spent all the money in Soft Furnishings and Ladies Haberdashery when off duty.

You would either have to laugh or you would have to cry.

I'm laughing.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 25 Jun, 2006 06:21 pm
UK UPDATE

Quote:
(London Times, June 26, 2006, Letters to the Editor)

Sir, Most faith schools in Britain are either Anglican or Roman Catholic and have no problem with evolution. The schools which do are either the independent evangelical schools or the city academies. Here creationism is taught, often under the cloak of "teaching the controversy" or balancing the two "faith" views of creation and evolution. Sometimes creationism is smuggled into state schools, often through visiting speakers. That is a great concern as creationism, whether as young earth creationism or intelligent design, can only be described as scientific nonsense. To compound this, most creationist writings are dishonest in their portrayal of "evolution". To teach creationism as science is to teach nonsense. It is timely that scientists have made it clear that creationism is misguided. However, it is a great pity that the churches have so far failed to address the issue. By failing to do so, they also put church schools at risk.
THE REV M. ROBERTS
Cockerham, Lancaster

Sir, It would have been more accurate to state that some creationists believe that the world was formed in 4004BC. The Bible gives no date for the formation of the world, rather it sets out the stages of its formation over an indeterminate period. In this regard there is no conflict. The issue is whether this world is the product of a series of random events over billions of years or the work of a divine being. To my mind, the magnificent complexity of this world proclaims the glory of God.
GEOFF GILL
Kendal, Cumbria

Sir, There is a straightforward objection to those who believe that the Earth is only 8,000 years old. Not the complexity of evolution, nor that of carbon-dating, but dendrochronology. Charting the overlap of the annular rings of the living and dead bristlecone pines in the White Mountains of California takes the oldest tree back to an age of 9,000 years; the recent discovery of even older pieces of timber is likely to take this further back to nearly 10,000 years, just about the end of the last Ice Age. The principle behind dendrochronolgy is so simple and the evidence obtained from it so obvious that it should be impervious to rebuttal.
PETER STOCKEN
Doncaster
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 27 Jun, 2006 09:17 am
UK UPDATE

Quote:
Creationism Taught By Design
(London Times, June 27, 2006)

CREATIONISM is finding its way into university lecture halls, raising concerns with some academics that the biblical story of creation will be given equal weight to Darwin's theory of evolution.

Compulsory lectures in intelligent design and creationism are going to be included in second-year courses for zoology and genetics undergraduates at Leeds University, The Times Higher Education Supplement (June 23) reveals.

But there's a twist: lecturers will present the controversial theories as being incompatible with scientific evidence. "It is essential they (students) understand the historical context and the flaws in the arguments these groups put forward," says Michael McPherson, of Leeds University.

Despite the clear anti- creationist stance of these lecturers, the move has set warning bells ringing across the UK science community.

"It would be undesirable for universities to spend a lot of precious resources teaching students that creationism and intelligent design are not based on scientific evidence," says David Read, the vice- president of the Royal Society.

Yet other academics are keen to see evolutionary theory challenged in university lecture halls.

"The scientific establishment prevents dissenting views," says Professor Steve Fuller, Professor of Sociology at the University of Warwick. "I have a lot of respect for those who have true scientific credentials and are upfront about their views."

Students, though, seem open to creationism. One study, carried out by Professor Roger Downie, of the University of Glasgow, found that one science student in ten did not believe in evolution.

"This gives a very poor prognosis for their understanding of what science is and their ability to be scientists," Prof Downie says.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 09:35 am
Quote:
Evolution's Lonely Battle in a Georgia Classroom
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 05:47 pm
Come on wande-

One incident proves nothing.

You are cherry picking in order to present the position you want to present.

Which is hardly scientific.

Are you only scientific when you feel like it?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 05:50 pm
I never really had much Hope for georgia, they eat too many squirrels down there.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 05:54 pm
According to evolutionary theory squirrels share very large percentages of DNA with our goodselves and thus that is an accusation of nearly cannibalism.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:05 pm
are you accusin the god fearin folk of georgia of bein related to tree rats?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 28 Jun, 2006 09:41 pm
Don't go makin' a big deal outta that, FM - we don't wanna be gettin' the tree rats all upset.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 04:48 am
looks like they locked up the evolution thread I suppose Rex's choice of words had a bit to do with it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 05:25 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
are you accusin the god fearin folk of georgia of bein related to tree rats?


Not me fm. Perish the thought.

It is evolution science that stresses the close kinship isn't it?

How on earth do you manage to twist words so that something your side have been saying all along in the abstract is then claimed to have been said by me as soon as a real case arrives.

Here is what I said-

Quote:
According to evolutionary theory squirrels share very large percentages of DNA with our goodselves and thus that is an accusation of nearly cannibalism.


"According to evolutionary theory" notice. It is ET that accuses the good folks of Georgia of being related to squirrels isn't it and you are an evolution theorist as I understand things. I didn't even suggest they eat them either. You did.

There's not much danger of you ever losing an argument using a method of that nature. A net full of slippery eels comes to mind.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 06:43 am
He was making a joke, Spendi!

In any case, using your reasoning...

...since we humans share a huge amount of our DNA will all other animals...

...we could all of us be charged with cannibalism.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 06:51 am
spendi says
Quote:
According to evolutionary theory squirrels share very large percentages of DNA with our goodselves and thus that is an accusation of nearly cannibalism.


"According to evolutionary theory" notice. It is ET that accuses the good folks of Georgia of being related to squirrels isn't it and you are an evolution theorist as I understand things. I didn't even suggest they eat them either. You did.

There's not much danger of you ever losing an argument using a method of that nature. A net full of slippery eels comes to mind.


First off, I was unaware that you were "arguing" anything. Im just getting my daily dose of "spendispume"., with nothing there to argueAT.
Evolutionary theory doesnt state that we "share" genic information with squirrels, genetics does. Evolutionary theory merely concludes that, because of this finding, humans have a traceable linneage back to and including rodents. (in fact we share about 25% of our genic material with rodents.At least try to exercise some precision when playing Mr Wizard.
Now, If you want to "argue" whether eating squirrels constitutes near cannibalism, Im afraid youll have to roust some of your barbuds for that one. I think squirel is quite tasty , and can be part of a nutritious diet that includes, among other things, bacon, toast, butter, potato chips,and twinkies.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 07:13 am
Such a diet is certainly nutritious for the medical profession. They look well set to dine on it for ever and ever.

FA wrote-

Quote:
He was making a joke, Spendi!


It was in very poor taste.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 07:30 am
spendi
Quote:
It was in very poor taste.


And that would be PUN-ishable by imprisonment in at least 15 states.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 07:43 am
spendius wrote:
Such a diet is certainly nutritious for the medical profession. They look well set to dine on it for ever and ever.

FA wrote-

Quote:
He was making a joke, Spendi!


It was in very poor taste.


Was that a pun?

Was that actually a play on words...and situation?

I love it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jun, 2006 08:43 am
MICHIGAN UPDATE

Quote:
Bill: Science only in science class
(JUDY PUTNAM, Saginaw News, June 29, 2006)

LANSING -- Lawmakers have booted a plan requiring science teachers to present competing theories of evolution and global warming from legislation after critics said it would require public schools to teach religious theories about creation.

The debate is not over.

The House Education Committee voted 15-2 Wednesday to forward the bill by Midland Republican Rep. John Moolenaar requiring teachers to use scientific methods to evaluate scientific theories.

It passed in an amended form proposed by Richland Republican Rep. Lorence Wenke that deleted examples of global warming and evolution, with support from Bad Axe Republican Tom Meyer and others.

Lawmakers still could reinsert those examples, however, as the bill moves through the Legislature.

Although supporters said the bill is not about intelligent design, a lawyer for the Gull Lake School District said it likely would lead to a lawsuit against the Kalamazoo County district, which in 2004 told two teachers to stop teaching the theory.

The Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor last year threatened to sue the district for not allowing the teaching of intelligent design, said Lisa Swem, the district's attorney. The center defended the Dover, Pa., school board's policy to teach intelligent design alongside evolution in a high-profile case last year. A federal court ruled that policy unconstitutional.

Swem said Moolenaar's original bill would require teaching competing theories to Darwin's evolution. She said intelligent design -- the theory that living creatures are so complex that they could not have developed without a guiding hand -- is "in the forefront of competing theories."

"It essentially would provide a legal basis for the Thomas More Center to follow through on the threat to sue for not teaching intelligent design," Swem said.

But Moolenaar said intelligent design is not the point. He said students need to learn to evaluate evidence that supports theories and opposes them.

Ralph Seelke, a University of Wisconsin-Superior biology professor, testified before the committee earlier this month that that there is evidence that doesn't fit with Darwin's theory of evolution, such as fossil records that show new species suddenly appearing.

Moolenaar said students should learn about that evidence. "The full range of scientific evidence ought to be considered," he said.

Swem said the language in Moolenaar's bill mirrors tactics by the intelligent design movement to get around court decisions by "teaching the controversy" over evolution.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jun, 2006 05:01 am
wandel
Quote:
Ralph Seelke, a University of Wisconsin-Superior biology professor, testified before the committee earlier this month that that there is evidence that doesn't fit with Darwin's theory of evolution, such as fossil records that show new species suddenly appearing.


While there are some outlyers of evidence that give fuel to the "sudden appearance" crowd, Most all of them are subjects of intensive study because fossil evidence , as we all know, is a hit or miss thing. Not all key spots on the earth were even conducive to fossilization. However, theres a big difference between observing these data gaps and basing an entire "belief in Creationism" on them. It took years of fortuitous finds in the Tertiary deposits of the Indian subcontinent to finally gather the "smoking gun" evidence about the appearance and evolution of whales. All this was happening while India was slamming into the belly of Asia. The fossil record is all screwed up and disorganized , so the paleontologists had to rely upon magnetics to sort out the many rock ages.

What "sudden appearance" means to me , is that we have to find the antecedent formations in similar environments to see whats there. YThis present discovery revolution is the very thing that is removing birds and amphibians from the "sudden appearance" list. My questions to Dr Seelke would be"How does the sudden appearance of one fossil group negate the mechanism of evolution when we clearly have opther groups that show gradualistic xchanges and evidence of evolution?"

"Do you fully understand the geologic context of the specimens youve been shown?( eg, are the specimens from a terminal bed just post dating some major unconformity or disconformity?"

"Why does a " sudden appearance" (in your eyes) invoke Creationism(even if sudden appearance were true) especially since the evidence for sudden appearance never is preceeded by strata void of any precursory life?"
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jun, 2006 07:01 am
fm-

Why do you continue to play this old record about Creationism.

The thread is about ID which, as I have already explained, has nothing to do with Creationism.

If you think that because Creationism is so easy to discredit you can rope in ID and discredit that on the guilt by association idea you should stick to ladies coffeee morning meetings and desist from such naive crudities on a thread like this.

The idea of a creative intelligence has moved on from where it was in the good old days and is an attempt, possibly doomed to fail, to prevent the scientific method from taking over the principle institutions of society on the grounds that the social consequences of such a takeover are not compatible with the natural emotions of the masses due to its pitiless logic, the sheer unmitigated boredom of it and the bigoted, bombastic and humourless forms in which it is presented by its leadership and the dreadful cadre of duped followers who ride on its coat-tails with their mad staring eyes and threatening physiognomies in the hope of securing for themselves positions of modest authority and increased salaries.

"crowd" eh?
0 Replies
 
 

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