Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

spendius wrote:

The thread is about ID which, as I have already explained, has nothing to do with Creationism.

spendi,

My interests in this thread cover more than ID. I am interested in tactics being used against the teaching of evolution. New variations such as "teach the controversy" and "sudden appearances" have been discussed several times on this thread.

Furthermore, ID is somewhat related to creationism. Saying that an organism was "produced by an intelligent designer" is equivalent to saying the organism was created.

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wande wrote-

Quote:

I am interested in tactics being used against the teaching of evolution.

Oh no you are not. You are interested in one specific manifestation of those tactics. Presumably because you think you can handle that specific manifestation possible because of the ease by which it can be done.

You, and your "crowd", as fm likes to designate others, have blankly refused to deal with the social consequences argument possibly, again, because that is too difficult for you and you vaguely suspect that you might actually agree with it when it was elaborated upon.

The thread, as it stands, has no direction to it once it becomes an "it is" "oh no it isn't" shouting match about Creationism which can only mean,from your side, that your opponents drop their lifetime's faith and they show no sign of even wobbling.

ID is related to Creationism like Women's Dress is related to mini-skirts or neck rings or any one of a large number of specific fashions connected to geography,class and psychological attitudes. Which is to say tenuously.

The modern idea of ID is related to Baroque music, perspective painting and space missions. Creationism is a skin it shed years ago like the Saturn rocket sheds its booster stages and then the bit with the geezers in it soars clear into the infinite void.

Dover was covered worldwide.And it is the impression it creates that matters and not some pedantic interpretations of the judgement and its technical intricacies.

Who do you wish to become converted to the anti-ID mindset? Is it everybody? and you do have to allow for that once you get on a soap box.

And don't start on again about how you can teach ID and anti-ID in the same school. You can't unless you're up for the fighting.

Just remind yourself of my self description in the member profile now and again. Enough not to forget it I mean.

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You are being silly, spendi.

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wandeljw wrote:

You are being silly, spendi.

And that statement, wande, is a tautology.

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And tautologies are, by their nature, meaningless.

Thank you timber!

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KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:

Candidates take opposite tacks on Kansas school science standards
(By MELODEE HALL BLOBAUM, The Kansas City Star, June 30, 2006)

It was easy to see this week where two 3rd District Republican candidates for the Kansas Board of Education stand on state science standards.

John Bacon, the incumbent, was part of the six-vote board majority approving standards that changed the definition of science to allow for non-natural explanations and cast significant doubt on the theory made famous by Charles Darwin.

"These standards encourage teachers to teach science honestly, to teach evolution honestly, making sure that students are able to think critically about the scientific evidence and evaluate the scientific evidence, whether it's for a particular view of evolution or maybe something that's critical to evolution," Bacon said Wednesday at a taped forum.

He said the standards actually allow more instruction on evolution and suggested that they "untie" teachers' hands.

But Harry McDonald III, a retired Blue Valley science teacher, said what Bacon sees as more science is not science.

He pointed to a case in Dover, Pa., where a judge threw out a school district policy of presenting intelligent design as an alternative to evolution. "(The judge said) promoting intelligent design or the disingenuous criticisms of evolution, which is what our state board has done, is unconstitutional and an insertion of religion," McDonald said.

The forum was sponsored by the Johnson County League of Women Voters and Johnson County Community College.

A third candidate, David Oliphant, did not attend. Contacted later, he said he went to the community college campus but was told the forum was scheduled for Thursday.

Bacon listed three defining points for his candidacy: high academic standards for students, fiscal accountability for schools, and local control, which he defined as "making sure that parents are involved and communities and families have a say in how their local schools are run and operated."

McDonald questioned Bacon's definition of local control.

"John favors parental control," McDonald said. "The problem is, when the parents disagree, who gets to make the decision? John favors the decision being made by people from across Kansas; I favor the decision being made by the local community through its local school board."

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MELODEE wrote-

Quote:

It was easy to see this week where two 3rd District Republican candidates for the Kansas Board of Education stand on state science standards.

How sweet. It makes one think nostalgically of the telephonist in Twin Peaks or a young Mrs Hall.

This is pretty too-

Quote:

A third candidate, David Oliphant, did not attend. Contacted later, he said he went to the community college campus but was told the forum was scheduled for Thursday.

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shpendi

Quote:

ID is related to Creationism like Women's Dress is related to mini-skirts or neck rings or any one of a large number of specific fashions connected to geography,class and psychological attitudes. Which is to say tenuously.

. Shows how really ill-informed you are there spendi. ID grew out of the workd of "the Institute of Scientific Creationism" after the Cretinists lost in the USSC (again) It an outgrowth, its derivative and of the same genetic makeup. Youre a committee of one if you try to mount the same "high ground" as Mike Behe. While Mike stipulates to evolution and an old earth etc, he loses his point when he makes his irreducible complexity argument as a sort of "planning module" He, in effect states that, no matter what the environment has wrought, ID directed evolution "had a plan" . He tripped himself up nicely at Dover and , had you been better informed , perhaps youd better understand the point . AS it stands youre the only one going "yes it is, no it isnt".It appears that the US DIStrict Court has settled the argument. In the words of ken Miller.
"maybe Creationism and ID arent the exact same thing, but they do share a common ancestor"

Quote:

Creationism is a skin it shed years ago like the Saturn rocket sheds its booster stages and then the bit with the geezers in it soars clear into the infinite void.

Here, at least youre a bit closer. A Saturn booster goes only as far as its able to send its payload. Then , the payload, continues further. They both come from the same rocket. MAybe you want to rethink some of your movie metaphors. You been watching "Space Cowboys" again?

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Let's see you do a metaphor then fm.

On what grounds are you suggesting my last one is faulty within the bounds of poetic licence and conveying boundless optimism for the future.

Have you been listening to paint drying again. You see-I can do that sort of thing. It's dead easy. I ain't never heard of no Space Cowboys not nohow never.

I have told you before that intelligent design comes from the idea that the furthest end of the asymptote of knowledge is unimaginable, to use one of the words Darwin used.

You'll be telling us next that the wheel was invented in the garage where you buy your cars.

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spendi wrote:
"On what grounds are you suggesting my last one is faulty within the bounds of poetic licence ..."

spendi, you're really talking about "creative license." LOL

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spendi

Quote:

I have told you before that intelligent design comes from the idea that the furthest end of the asymptote of knowledge is unimaginable, to use one of the words Darwin used.

Please tell me , in what context did Darwin use the above phrase?

When I use metaphors they are usually much better crafted than yours. Yours are rather sloppy and scattershot. Mine are focusing, like a convex lens. Very Happy

Also, your litotes are quite lame.

The fish in the stone
would like to fall
back into the sea. He is weary
of analysis, the small
predictable truths.
He is weary of waiting
in the open,
his profile stamped
by white light.

in the ocean the silence
moves and moves

and so much is unnecessary?
Patient, he drifts
until the moment comes
to cast his
skeletal blossom.

the fish in the stone
knows to fail is
to do the living a favor.
he knows why the ant
engineers a gangsters
funeral, garish
and perfectly amber.

He knows why the scientist
in secret delight
strokes the ferns
voluptuous braille.

Lets see you argue with that.

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spendi, no matter what you, or for that matter anyone else, might tell us in such regard, and no matter how often, the simple, incontravertable fact, as determined by logic and research and corroborated by several particulars of legal finding, is that Creationism and ID-iocy coequally are manifestations of a proposition of religious, as opposed to scientific, origin and intent.

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Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:57 a.m. EDT
ACLU: Kick Jesus Out of High School

Two civil liberties groups sued in federal court Wednesday to remove a picture of Jesus that has hung in a high school for more than 30 years.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the West Virginia American Civil Liberties Union say the painting, "Head of Christ," sends the message that Bridgeport High School endorses Christianity as its official religion.

"I frankly cannot understand why this school insists that it is doing nothing wrong," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "This is pretty clear constitutional law. Public schools cannot promote specific religious ideas."

A vote by the Harrison County, W.Va. school board on removing the painting ended in a tie this month.

"At this point, it's a matter that's pretty much going to be up to the board," Superintendent Carl Friebel Jr. said. "It's just going to be very interesting for me to see what the board wants us to do with it."

The suit was filed on behalf of Harold Sklar and Jacqueline McKenzie, whose children attended or will attend the school.

© 2006 Associated Press.

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fm-

On the evidence I have seen you wouldn't know litotes if it jumped out on you and bit your donger off.

The poem is far too precious for my liking. You'll have to explain how the fish in the stone would "like" anything. And it's a bit defeatist all round except for the last four lines which are neat.

Darwin used a few words like "unimaginable" in Origin. He didn't use the phrase I used though.

You should not forget that I write on the hoof. I don't work the stuff over. I played football on the pitch not on the drawing board. And my subject is chosen for me as in repartee. I'm not burning the midnight oil over it.

What's your criticism of my two metaphors? I just don't see anti-IDers using them much. They simply make statements.

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Factual statements with evidence. Wink

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Just like that, as Tommy Cooper used to say.

You can bet on it.

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Quote:

The modern idea of ID is related to Baroque music, perspective painting and space missions. Creationism is a skin it shed years ago like the Saturn rocket sheds its booster stages and then the bit with the geezers in it soars clear into the infinite void.

I still think that's pretty good. It's pure Faustianism so I guess that is why it might be under-rated. There's no self pity in it like I sense is at the bottom of-

He is weary of waiting
in the open,
his profile stamped
by white light.

in the ocean the silence
moves and moves

and so much is unnecessary?
Patient, he drifts
until the moment comes
to cast his
skeletal blossom.

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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