Setanta,
I agree that dubious material should not be included in curriculum. Science, in particular, is very specialized. It is best to rely on a consensus of experts.
wande wrote-
Quote:To the extent that there is real substance to the claim that academic freedom is endangered, it comes from the efforts of those like advocates of intelligent design (ID), who want to foist their "theory" on unsuspecting undergraduates who haven't learned enough about science to see through its pretensions of being real science rather than merely being disguised theology.
I thought we were talking about school kids. Surely undergraduates are beyond the reach of IDers. "Unsuspecting undergraduates" is a new one on me. As a group they are as smart as a cartload of monkeys. I can't imagine a bunch of our undergraduates listening to a creationist without a constant barrage of horse laughter going off. And the French lot are even worse.
BTW-I can make a case for astrology. It is much misunderstood and like all complex things easy to manipulate to take advantage of the gullible if a certain rhetorical charm is deployed. There's a certain cultural wisdom in it which is entirely scientific as any sensible person would expect of anything so deep rooted. To dismiss a cultural phenomenon with that depth as foolish is foolish. The trappings are a metaphor.
There's room for everybody on here.
This is an open-ended,unending money-for jam routine in which aggressive self-assertive personalities,as the chosen people, are absolved from scrubbing floors,collecting the trash and generally doing anything useful (Use=Odium,Waste=Status. The Veblen equation).
When does the book come out of how they made the film of how "the very dramatic story about what was happening" when two Free State High School girls were made "honorary investors" and promised good seats at the first showing of the film.
How many Free State High School girls are there in America. Is 10 million close?
Good points made in that article, Wandel, about the strategy of the creationists. The 1987 decision by the Supremes lead to ID, and, eventually, to the Dover debacle. There is every reason to think that this bunch will continue to attack science education, simply shifting the axis of their attack.
Setanta,
Out of all the things going on in various state legislatures, the turn of events in South Carolina is the most bizarre.
SOUTH CAROLINA UPDATE
Quote:Evolution battle may find new venue
I'm not sure how they are going to discredit evolution; they just make themselves look more stupid in the attempt. I understand it's now costing them money because of the lawsuits in trying to establish ID in science courses. If they wish to throw away their money that badly, I can suggest some good charities for them; me!
c.i. wrote-
Quote:If they wish to throw away their money that badly, I can suggest some good charities for them; me!
Leaving aside eccentrics money cannot be thrown away. It can only be circulated and redistributed. Money stored away is redundant. And it isn't "their" money. All the money belongs to the government. If the government knows a certain amount gets destroyed physically it simply prints replacements.
If the money was passed to you c.i. it would result in the conversion of harmless underground fossil fuels being converted to harmful substances,some as yet unknown in both their nature and effects. If it is passed to lawyers much of it will be used to generate relatively harmless items such as ladies fashions and soft furnishings and garden accessories with a resultant increase in property values and social tone and be thereby useless for oil producing nations to put to their uses. It's a bit like poker with the smartest usually winning.
When the taxpayer is paid tax is deducted.Some of what is left is passed,in this case,and in many others,to others who receive it as pay and thus tax is due on it again. When what is left of that is used to purchase frocks say,more tax is due and when the owner of the frock shop fills up with gas with what remains more tax comes due and the gas supplier also has to pay tax and so on and so forth until by the time it gets back to Washington roughly the same amount that was sent out returns. In practice it is much more complicated than that as you might imagine but I think I have conveyed the general idea.
Such a system is irreducibly complex to those who are unaware of it and they live their lives within this bubble of ignorance and their pronouncements from within that bubble can be objectively defined as stupid.
Hey, spendi, you must learn to read statements in more ways than the one you seem to see. Been drinking again? *What a foolish q; but with spendi, foolishnish is the only thing he understands.
spendius wrote: Such a system is irreducibly complex to those who are unaware of it and they live their lives within this bubble of ignorance and their pronouncements from within that bubble can be objectively defined as stupid.
Quite.
Gotta love the irony there ... its so much richer when the perpetrator is the victim.
Yes-it is isn't it timber. They deserve all they get. Some of them have been fair wrung out this last week what with pants down in Admiralty House,dangerous prisoners running loose by the thousand,nurses booing,a fine sight, and Big T in a muck sweat.
MISSOURI UPDATE
Today's issue of the St. Louis Post reports that an anti-evolution bill in the state legislature did NOT pass. (HB1266 which required teachers to distinguish between "verified empirical data" and theories when discussing evolution.)
Its good that this one didnt pass. I could see that techers, depending on their
philosophical bent, could merely claim, like our GUNGASNAKE does, that something isnt verifiable when its been verified and repeated and applied over and over.
This article from one year ago:
Antievolution bill dies in Missouri
When the legislative session of the Missouri House of Representatives ended on May 13, 2005, House Bill 35 died in the Education Committee. HB 35 provided that:
All biology textbooks sold to the public schools of the state of Missouri shall have one or more chapters containing a critical analysis of origins. The chapters shall convey the distinction between data and testable theories of science and philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy, such as biological evolution, the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society.
The second and third sentences, of course, are modelled after the so-called Santorum language, present only in the Joint Explanatory Statement of the Committee of Conference for the No Child Left Behind Act and not in the act itself. The sponsor of the bill, Cynthia Davis (R-O'Fallon), was a cosponsor of both of the previous legislative session's "intelligent design" bills in the Missouri House of Representatives, HB 911 and HB 1722.
On May 4, 2004, the House Education Committee alloted ninety minutes of hearings to HB 35, although it was so late then in the legislative session that there was no realistic possibility that the bill would proceed further. During the hearings, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, "All but one person who testified in favor of the bill were members of two families, both of which home school their children." Testifying against it were Bob Boldt, Jan Weaver of the University of Missouri, Columbia, and Becky Lutherland, representing the Science Teachers of Missouri. Undaunted, Cynthia Davis told the Post-Dispatch that "she hopes that by getting a hearing, she at least introduces a concept that might catch on in next year's session."
May 17, 2005
I was discussing this question with my friend. and i agree with his answer.
ID is not a scientific theory because it cannot be falsified. if a theory doesn't have the POTENTIAL to be falsified, then it can't be confirmed either
for example, newton's theory of gravitation predicts that F= ( m1 x m2)/d^2
if we make observations that the force between two objects is actually the inverse CUBE of the distance, rather than the SQUARE, then the theory would be falsified. and thus far, every observation with the exception of things moving at the speed of light and quantum particles, is coherent with F= ( m1 x m2)/d^2. so newton's theory of gravitation is a TESTABLE theory.
): now in intelligent design, there is no such observation that is observed, can contradict ID. EVERYTHING IS CONSISTENT with ID, anything contradictory observations can be explained away with "it was the will of the intelligent designer". thus, ID can neither be confirmed or falsified, which goes against the scientific principal of POPPERIAN FALSIBILITY, and therefore is not a scientific theory
ID is every bit as valid as SOLIPSISM, which is a conjecture that the entire universe is just a by-product of your imagination. there is no way to either confirm or falsify solipism, because there is nothing that can FALSIFY solipsism, therefore it is untestable
Maradona, WELCOME to A2K. Your thesis is well written, and many on a2k have already explained the difference between science and religion. The problem is simply that religionists refuse to acknowledge what is so obvious; that ID cannot be proven to be false or true, because it sits in the imagination of the believer based on a two thousand year old book that is riddled with errors, omissions, and contradictions. Perceptions by the brain of individuals will remain a mystery for all time.
Where would the speculative unified field theory stand as per falsifiablity? How (at least in principle) could you make an observation that would show the unified field theory proposition to fall short of being a tautology, even if that observation is not actually made? Perhaps by positing a nonexistent realty?
Chumly wrote:
Where would the speculative unified field theory stand as per falsifiablity? How (at least in principle) could you make an observation that would show the unified field theory proposition to fall short of being a tautology, even if that observation is not actually made? Perhaps by positing a nonexistent realty?
Okay, Chumly, translate that into simple English, will you? To begin with, what does "speculative unified field theory" mean? Most of us are not familiar with physics/science.