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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 08:32 pm
spendius wrote:
It entertains people thinking that they understand things.I think it boosts their egos or something.It gives them a warm glow of self satisfaction.

I suppose it would seem that way to folks incapable of, or at least disinterested in, actually thinking about and understanding things.

Quote:
It's pitiful really but there it is.

Indeed - there it is.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 06:55 am
timber wrote-

Quote:
spendius wrote:
It entertains people thinking that they understand things.I think it boosts their egos or something.It gives them a warm glow of self satisfaction.

I suppose it would seem that way to folks incapable of, or at least disinterested in, actually thinking about and understanding things.


Are you suggesting there timber that readers of the article do understand it in any meaningful way and that it is remiss of me to think otherwise.

In this-

Quote:
. They focused on a gene that makes a protein involved in memory and perception. Although the protein is exactly the same in human and chimpanzee brains, the team found that humans have evolved minute genetic changes that cause brain cells to make, or "express," more of the crucial protein, perhaps helping the human brain to work better.


I rather incline to the view that 99.9% of the population could not be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory","perception", or even of "focussed".

The text speaks of the protein as being "exactly the same" and then goes on to point to a "crucial"difference in humans which "perhaps" (i.e. might not) helps the human brain to work better.Whatever "work better" might mean.

What you have is "pop" science as you also often see on certain types of programmes on television.One last night I saw snatches of talked about a "big bang" taking place from nothing and in nothing 13.7 billion years ago and a whole mish-mash of other such incredibly over-simplified nonsense involving multiple universes etc,time going backwards at different rates and so on and so forth.

Are you trying to say timber that this type of thing is anything other than entertainment.It obviously is just that and those who are interested in focussing on understanding things will justifiably speculate on why it is entertaining and the idea that it is because it flatters the viewers or readers self perceptions will obviously be one of the first things to come under consideration on the basis of the Pavlovian and Freudian concept of the "pleasure principle" and the mythological idea of "narcissism".

It does not bode well for science that an "Essdeeoid" finds my statement objectionable.

If the article in question does have a purpose I would guess it is to soften up the public to accept and fund research into areas which some people find potentially fearsome by talking up the benefits,which are fundamentally inexplicable from an evolutionary point of view,whilst remaining silent about the potential dangers.

Whatever-it was meaningless from a scientifically focussed person's position in 2006.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 07:13 am
spendi
Quote:
I rather incline to the view that 99.9% of the population could not be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory","perception", or even of "focussed".
, and this leads you to what conclusion?
Quote:
It does not bode well for science that an "Essdeeoid" finds my statement objectionable.
Actually its quite in characer for the IDers to bring this up. IDers have a vested interest in maintaining the ignorance quotient high enough so that they can more easily manipulate these 99+% ers (according to you).
Iders have an innate gfear that research, genic , genetic , and genomic will reveal facts that can no longer enndorse your bullshit or hide the fact that their clothing is quite transparent..
How come then, if ID is a valid stance, that the most vocal of ID groups, spends much of its time trying (and failing) to debunk standard science when they have nothing in its place to supplant it?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:06 am
spendius,

To me, your comments on the article reflect your own desire to remain ignorant on the science behind evolutionary theory. It is silly to assert that your personal feelings represent 99% of society.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:30 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
spendiQuote:
I rather incline to the view that 99.9% of the population could not be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory","perception", or even of "focussed".

, and this leads you to what conclusion?


My conclusion was that the article was entertainment and a cheap method of "writing on the back of adverts".

I thought that was pretty plain.Perhaps my posts are not being read properly.

Are you trying to suggest that only the IDers have a vested interest.

I never said that 99+% of the population are "ignorant".I only said that they couldn't be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory" and "perception".Which is not the same thing at all.
I daresay Mr Bush and Micheal Schumacher would be struggling to say much beyond that protein is a nutrient found in meat. Kindly refrain,if you will,from putting words into my posts that are not only not there but self evidently so. Is that an Essdeeoid manipulation technique.

IDers may well have other fears which you so pointedly fail to mention.Once again you fail to distinguish between ID in its higher theological settings and those of its grass roots followers.

Why do you persist with this idea that you need to continually point out that ID is not valid science.In the narrow definition of science,as an abstract concept unrelated to psychological and social considerations of human beings,of course it is not valid science.That has been agreed many times by me. If ID groups claim otherwise it can only be a strategy and a losing one at that.

And it does Essdeeoid's case no good to keep using terms like "bullshit" to categorise their opponents position.If I was an "undecided" I would desert the Essdeeoid position on that alone.I wouldn't wish to be associated with such a bigoted,intolerant and ungentlemanly position in a debate.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 08:44 am
UK UPDATE

Quote:
...And on the eighth day Blair created academies
(Brenda Bullock, Birmingham Post, March 20, 2006)

More than a hundred years ago, Edmund Gosse published a memoir - Father & Son - of his relationship with his father, Philip, an eminent Victorian biologist.

His father was a fanatical Christian fundamentalist who saw his career unravel because of the new theories of evolution of Charles Darwin.
Although he intellectually knew as a scientist that Darwin's theory was correct, he could not let go of his deeply held religious faith, which taught that the world was only a few thousand years old, was created in six days along with all the creatures that now inhabit it.

He preferred, as his son said, "the servitude of error" to "a flood of light;" everyone had to hold that belief as he "had no concept of the importance of liberty".

What it was that brought the book to my mind was the revelation that in Middlesbrough there are three new "academy" schools, paid for and run by car dealer Peter Vardy, who is an avowed Christian fundamentalist and believer in the same myths Gosse's father adhered to a hundred years ago.

The headmaster he has appointed to run his schools also holds the same views and the creationist theory is taught as fact in all three schools. It is even claimed that teachers in the schools are appointed for their adherence to the religious dogma rather than for their skills as teacher.

I realise that a good many people who have no religious affiliations or belief are prone to say, when faced with unruly teenagers, that they could all do with a dose of "good old Christian ethics". But I hardly think that even these people could approve of having three such state secondary schools without any consultation with the parents about what was to be taught in the school, the ethos of the school or the fact that no alternative choice of school was offered.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 09:25 am
Quote:
If I was an "undecided" I would desert the Essdeeoid position on that alone.I wouldn't wish to be associated with such a bigoted,intolerant and ungentlemanly position in a debate.
, educated, dont forget educated.
I love it the way you attempt to mount a moral high ground.


Quote:
I never said that 99+% of the population are "ignorant".I only said that they couldn't be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory" and "perception".
. Duhhh.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:07 am
wande wrote-

Quote:
spendius,

To me, your comments on the article reflect your own desire to remain ignorant on the science behind evolutionary theory. It is silly to assert that your personal feelings represent 99% of society.


Nothing of the sort wande I'm afraid.

I have no desire to remain ignorant of the science behind evolutionary theory.I own and have read many books on the subject including Origin and others by Mr Darwin and also biographies concerning him.Even with that I am certainly not as clued-up as I ought to be but I'm nowhere near as ignorant as the vast majority of people I meet on the subject.

I did not assert that my personal feelings represent 99% of society.If you actually think that I suggest that you remain ignorant of the English language.
I said that 99% of the population could not be examined satisfactorily on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory",and "perception"in even an elementary scientific sense.I stand by that.It has nothing to do with my personal feelings.I'm well known for having very few personal feelings anyway. The fictional character whose name I borrowed was chosen for precisely the reason that he showed no personal feelings when crucified.That is why I used the small case "s".I don't think I would be dispassionate to the extent Flaubert depicted Spendius to be.Hence I'm only spendius.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:13 am
spendi wrote:
I said that 99% of the population could not be examined satisfactorily on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory",and "perception"in even an elementary scientific sense.I stand by that.It has nothing to do with my personal feelings.I'm well known for having very few personal feelings anyway. The fictional character whose name I borrowed was chosen for precisely the reason that he showed no personal feelings when crucified.That is why I used the small case "s".I don't think I would be dispassionate to the extent Flaubert depicted Spendius to be.Hence I'm only spendius.

What spendi is ignorant of are logistics and common sense. Who in their right mind will even attempt to verify his 99% of the population on anything? Basically, it turns out to be his personal opinion with no support for such a proposition. Making such claims doesn't even come close to an intellectual discussion; unsupportable grandois claims says more about the writer and his inability to see reality.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:23 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
I love it the way you attempt to mount a moral high ground.


There is no moral high ground in a position that deplores the use of "bullshit" to categorise an opponents position in a debate.It is simply a pointless method of debate because it allows the opponent the right to reply in a similar manner.

Quote:
Quote:
I never said that 99+% of the population are "ignorant".I only said that they couldn't be satisfactorily examined on the meaning of "gene","protein","memory" and "perception".
. Duhhh.


Do you actually think that more than 1% could be examined on the meaning of those words in any scientific sense.I know I couldn't be on the first three and what I know about perception is probably only enough for a bare pass grade.

I presume you know that a bare pass grade means that a person with one knows only a slight amount of the subject.I knew a young lady once who was suicidal on only getting a second class honours in mathematics at Oxford.

Somebody on another thread once asked satirically-

"What do you call a doctor who was bottom of his class in medical college?"

Answer-"Doctor".
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:28 am
spendi wrote:
I presume you know that a bare pass grade means that a person with one knows only a slight amount of the subject.I knew a young lady once who was suicidal on only getting a second class honours in mathematics at Oxford.

Somebody on another thread once asked satirically-

"What do you call a doctor who was bottom of his class in medical college?"

Answer-"Doctor".


What exactly are we supposed to learn from this?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:42 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
He preferred, as his son said, "the servitude of error" to "a flood of light;"


Would you really like a "flood of light" boys or only one which you can personally cope with and which you can pretend is the "full monte" for posing purposes.

Quote:
myths Gosse's father adhered to a hundred years ago.


Yes,but the Narcissus myth remains an extremely valuable insight despite the ridiculousness of the actual story and so also many other myths such as the Sumerian creation myth.

Quote:
avowed Christian fundamentalist and believer in the same myths Gosse's father adhered to a hundred years ago.


Avowed and believer are not the same thing.I know it suits your purposes to pretend an equivalence but that's by-the-by.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:53 am
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
What spendi is ignorant of are logistics and common sense. Who in their right mind will even attempt to verify his 99% of the population on anything? Basically, it turns out to be his personal opinion with no support for such a proposition. Making such claims doesn't even come close to an intellectual discussion; unsupportable grandois claims says more about the writer and his inability to see reality.


I take it from that that you think that your understanding of "gene","protein","memory" and "perception is up to speed and that you know others with an equally advanced understanding.

Be careful c.i.Going round in self-centred circles is known to cause dizziness.

I would go 99.9% actually on anything remotely approaching familiarity with the concepts.Even 0.1% repesents 280,000 Americans and there are four highly specialised nouns to deal with in order that the original quote can have meaning.A full 1% represents 2.8 million Americans.

You're having yourself on mate.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 10:56 am
c.i. wrote

Quote:
What exactly are we supposed to learn from this?


That it is about time you got wised up instead of believing in a load of self-congratulatory and superficial assertions.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:00 am
Where's that link gone that (echi) put on.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:03 am
spendi, I have never in my life been "self-congratulatory or made superficial assertions" on any topic. But you seem the expert on such matters with your opinon on most topics.

You wrote: "I would go 99.9% actually on anything remotely approaching familiarty with the concepts."

Show your evidence for such "superficial assertions?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:04 am
You'd be better off talking the way you do in a pub full of drunks.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:08 am
OK c.i.

Get yourself boned up on "perception".It will only take you about five years if you concentrate on it.
Then go out and question your fellow man on the subject.

At the end of it you'll be able to get a well paid job in advertising composing the dots on the nation's TV screens.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:20 am
spendi's reply to my comment:
Quote:
I did not assert that my personal feelings represent 99% of society.If you actually think that I suggest that you remain ignorant of the English language.


spendius,

I should not have used the word "assert"----"imply" would have been more accurate. Your comments on the news article about Duke University's research imply that society reflects your lack of interest in the science behind evolutionary theory. In other words, I feel that you were exagerrating or over-reaching.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 20 Mar, 2006 11:21 am
You make the claim, you prove it. Doesn't work the other way around; you're talking like a drunk now. Making no sense at all.
0 Replies
 
 

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