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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 04:25 pm
Oooh! All my fond hopes and dreams dashed in a thrice.

Basketball seems ridiculous to my refined eyes.

Your football is incomprehensible.If the opposing team can't tell where the ball is how can the spectators.We play with a white ball in order that everybody can see it.

Tell me patiodozer-how many difficult decisions are there for the umpires to make in baseball.Give me an idea of the subtleties in play in a baseball game.I would like to like it.

Sport is a bit like ID.

1-Though shalt not control the ball with thy hands up to thy shoulders.

2-Thou shalt not trip thy opponent when he's clean through with only the goalie to beat.

3-Thou shalt not strike the referee.

There's hundreds of them.

None of them are capable of scientific proof.In fact,from a scientific point of view,the players should fight for the money in the time honoured fashion bringing any weapons they can carry and after having prepared themselves however they think best.All sports with a set of commandments would be wiped off the memories of the population in a scientific sport surely?

Cricket is definitely the game nearest to that but still a long way off it thankfully.It is mercilessness within an complicated agreed framework and cold blooded to boot.They only look like gentlemen from a distance.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 04:30 pm
Quote:
Tell me patiodozer-how many difficult decisions are there for the umpires to make in baseball.


Many. Anger ensues.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 06:26 pm
The game of baseball is first mentioned in print in Northhanger Abbey, by Jane Austen, published posthumously in 1817. However, as that work was developed from a work of Austen's juvinilia, an unfinished work entitled Catherione, or the Bower, there is good reason to believe that the game was known in England as long ago as the 1790's and very likely much earlier.

The earliest references to it in print of which i know in the United States are in newspapers in New York in the late 1830's.

The game of basketball was invented by a Canadian.

The modern rules for fottball in Canada and the United States derive from an agreement to play "Harvard rules" rugby between McGill University (Montréal) and Harvard University in 1876. The rules used in the United States and Canada have developed and diverged slightly since then (the Canadians use a 110 yard field, and have three downs to make ten yards, being the principle differences).

Altoghether, Spenid's remarks have the character of schoolboy taunts . . . we expect no less . . .
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 06:35 pm
We just returned from a splendid oyster dinner on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. So I see that spendi is symmetrically happy this e'en (as described by Mr Clemens).

Discussing whose sport is more idiotic is like "technical" discussions between Iders and Creationists. You know theyre all full of **** but their reporters are so damned gifted at writing and commentary (of course with the notable exceptions of Limbaugh and Dennis Miller)


Ye spendi, you were making sense for a few days there and Id like to commend you on that fact. Your writing went to tyhe concise and all tangents and masturbatory flourishes were removed. I wish youd try to reach back and capture the moment. You aint no WHistler. Youre more like a William Claude Dukenfield
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 06:41 pm
patio-

Are there any when the ball pitches 1/2 a cm outside of an imaginary line drawn from stump to stump which swings in the air,goes the other way off the pitch,takes the finest of tickles on the bat,is deflected off the pads protecting the top of the off stump,is caught close to the ground by 1st slip at 93 mph,while a wasp is buzzing round the umpire's nose and giving "not out" or "out",as a response to outrageous appeals,a split second decision,which the slow motion replays are going to study at great length, and which can change the whole match,the whole series,the destination of the cash and can wreck reputations built up over extended periods of time with maximum exertions in the full glare of the spotlights.

And no anger must be shown under pain of a large fine or even,in extreme cases,a suspension, varying in length depending on a previously agreed consensus on the limits of anger display toleration acceptable to a modern audience brought up on Oprah Winfrey.

And that's a bit of a simple case.

Having nine innings seems to relieve the pressure somewhat.A cricket batsman,surviving such a scenario before he has scored might well bat all through a day and a half and score a match winning total if the tail can stay with him long enough and he doesn't faint with exhaustion.

And in baseball there are very few close fielders to discuss the batsman's parentage and what his wife is doing whilst he's touring in India within his earshot whilst the bowler is walking back to his mark or how he was got out so easily in a previous game or anything else they can think of to disturb his concentration.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 06:48 pm
And that was merely an exercise in the use of the comma.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 06:57 pm
spendi
Quote:
patio-

Are there any when the ball pitches 1/2 a cm outside of an imaginary line drawn from stump to stump which swings in the air,goes the other way off the pitch,takes the finest of tickles on the bat,is deflected off the pads protecting the top of the off stump,is caught close to the ground by 1st slip at 93 mph,while a wasp is buzzing round the umpire's nose and giving "not out" or "out",as a response to outrageous appeals,a split second decision,which the slow motion replays are going to study at great length, and which can change the whole match,the whole series,the destination of the cash and can wreck reputations built up over extended periods of time with maximum exertions in the full glare of the spotlights.


Or "how to abuse punctuation".

For those who really wish to understand the fine points of cricket, namely what the hell is even going on , in the field, while the spectators get quietly drunk, is well presented by Wilso, on another thread.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 06:57 am
Where is this Wilso cove to be found fm?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 07:16 am
SPENDI ASKS< AND I COMPLYWILSO"S CRICKET THREAD

I think, you shoul read it cover to cover, to best capture the spirit in which WIlso provided the information on the game of cricket (which I always thought was something "made up" like a Monty Python sketch. It turns out that there are all sorts of rules, equations , and aspectsof cosmology that conspire to make scoring possible in the game.
Ive also learned that you can have a cricket match last longer than a Polish wedding.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 08:43 am
Quote:
How evolution cooks up life's endless variety
(Gareth Cook, Boston Globe, March 19, 2006)

To understand one of the latest theories in evolution, consider the "Iron Chef" television show.

Dueling chefs are given a featured ingredient and then race to create dishes. They both start with, say, lobster meat, but one might produce a seaweed salad while the other would make corn and lobster dumplings.

Substitute genes for ingredients, and it explains how humans can be so similar to chimpanzees -- sharing more than 98 percent of our genetic code -- and yet so different. In becoming human, people didn't evolve a lot of new genes, scientists believe; they made different use of the ones they had.

In December, researchers at Duke University announced some of the first concrete evidence for this idea. They focused on a gene that makes a protein involved in memory and perception. Although the protein is exactly the same in human and chimpanzee brains, the team found that humans have evolved minute genetic changes that cause brain cells to make, or "express," more of the crucial protein, perhaps helping the human brain to work better. A little more of these proteins here, a little less of those proteins there, and -- voila -- a chimp becomes a human.

The chimpanzee research is part of a profound conceptual shift. Biologists have long suspected that "gene expression" -- the way cells make more of some proteins and less of others -- could be important in answering many biological questions. But now some biologists believe that this process could play a vital role in explaining the way one species evolves into another with sometimes shocking speed.

"What we used to think of as big, complex changes are in fact remarkably easy to achieve" through changes in gene expression, said Gregory A. Wray, a professor of biology at Duke University who led the chimpanzee research. "This is changing the way that we think about evolution."

The new research on gene expression could provide an answer to a puzzle that has confounded biologists since Darwin and that has recently been seized on by proponents of intelligent design: the idea that life is too complex to have happened without the help of a higher being. With the "survival of the fittest," it is easy to see that a lion that runs a little faster will be a better hunter and thus be more likely to survive and pass on this attribute to its offspring. Over time, these improvements accumulate, and lions evolve.

But where do these changes come from in the first place? In other words, how could it be that a single, random genetic change would be able to improve on something so complex as, say, the legs of a lion, with all of their interconnected joints, tendons, nerves, and muscles.

"We need to understand how you get the various kinds of novelty -- the first hand, the first eye, the first brain," said Marc Kirschner at a recent talk at Harvard Medical School, where he is a professor. "It is the variety of life that needs explaining." Kirschner is co-author of a new book, "The Plausibility of Life," about the biological sources of evolutionary change.

The research on gene expression, and particularly an active field called "evolutionary developmental biology," or "evo devo," is now addressing this question, according to Sean B. Carroll, a scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.

In every cell, there are genes that create the proteins that are the building blocks of life. But these proteins can also work as signals, turning on or off other genes. The proteins from these genes may affect still more genes. So a protein from a single gene can set off a cascade of other changes. A study published in Nature last week by scientists at Yale University found that as humans evolved from their ape ancestors, the regulatory genes were more likely to have changed than genes that don't switch other genes.

Changes in gene expression are particularly important during embryonic development. One small, accidental genetic change, Carroll and others say, can cause changes in the expression of many genes, which change how the body of an animal develops before it is born. For example, changing a single gene in the fruit fly will cause it to grow a leg on its head instead of an antenna. In a sense, the mutation has changed the biological signal that means "grow an antenna here" to "grow a leg here." Sometimes, such a genetic change -- and all the physical changes it causes -- will leave the animal better adapted to its surroundings, and evolution takes off.

Biologists widely agree that gene expression is important, but its role in evolution is still very much an open question because researchers only recently began finding clear examples.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 12:48 pm
wande-quoted

Quote:
To understand one of the latest theories in evolution,
.

There's no understanding in sight in what follows.It's just playing with words.

Quote:
Changes in gene expression are particularly important during embryonic development. One small, accidental genetic change, Carroll and others say, can cause changes in the expression of many genes, which change how the body of an animal develops before it is born. For example, changing a single gene in the fruit fly will cause it to grow a leg on its head instead of an antenna. In a sense, the mutation has changed the biological signal that means "grow an antenna here" to "grow a leg here." Sometimes, such a genetic change -- and all the physical changes it causes -- will leave the animal better adapted to its surroundings, and evolution takes off.


Anybody could learn to say a thing like that.It's intended to sound good.There's no understanding in sight.


I sometimes wonder whether all that stuff is not just a distraction,a repression technique, from the complexities of life as it is now.I know it might lead to useful knowledge in the medical field but aside from that why is it of interest.What difference does it make how we got here and what we do next.

A lion might be advantaged by all sorts of things.Just running fast,which it doesn't really,is just a teleology.

It detracts from science to give the impression that these things are easy to understand even though it might flatter people to be given such an impression.
And school teachers would likely be at the forefront in allowing themselves to fall into such flattery.

And an audience of the great unwashed paying scant attention might feel that if research in this field can lead to having an extra leg on the head that it justifies having suspicions about it which an astute politician can fan into a fire.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 01:05 pm
Quote;
I sometimes wonder whether all that stuff is not just a distraction,a repression technique, from the complexities of life as it is now.I know it might lead to useful knowledge in the medical field but aside from that why is it of interest.What difference does it make how we got here and what we do next.


Curiosity is what advances mankinds ability to progress.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 01:18 pm
Agreed.

But we are discussing ordinary classroom settings.

To allow yourself to think that you know anything worthwhile about evolving genes and embryonic happenings from wande's quote is self-kidology.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 01:42 pm
"self-kidology" spendi, Very good word! Wink Although the context on which you used it was a waste.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 02:20 pm
You might,just to provide an exercise in curiosity,give explaining why it was a waste a go instead of simply asserting it.

I'm afraid to have to say that you asserting it to be a waste is not scientific evidence that it is actually a waste.The only thing your assertion achieves is to tacitly grant me permission to make assertions myself or to claim that they are your exclusive right.As the latter is untrue I will,this once,take advantage of your kind permission and say-"Oh no it wasn't".

You may now say-"Oh yes it was."

To which I will reply-"Oh no it wasn't."

I am near the end of Lord Avon's 2nd volume of memoirs dealing with the war and twice he has referred to the propensity of senior American government people to believe that their assertions are true and that they having made the assertion is scientific proof of it.So I am not surprised to find ordinary Americans thinking the same.

Psychologists have also made reference to this propensity,which exists in England as well I'm sorry to have to confess,and they link it to an over-extended infant dependency aka "Spoilt brat syndrome".

The quote wande produced is heavily loaded with such unscientific lardy-dardy and I have little doubt that readers of it will be telling everybody they meet and wish to impress that lions evolved because evolution selects in swift runners or that changing half a dozen genes can lead to eyes growing on the backside which would be an advantageous mutation to those species which are commonly snuk up on and eaten.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 04:07 pm
spendi
Quote:
Anybody could learn to say a thing like that.It's intended to sound good.There's no understanding in sight.
. So simple, so elegant, no interventions or hocus pocus. Its a matter of organic surface chemistry. It took many shoulders to stand on before "anybody' could learn that phrase and be able to speak it with conviction and credibility. Spendi, the master of the obvious, merely has to wait a few decades for these discoveries and let someone else work out all the reactions and multiple expressions of genes.Then he can tell all the boys down at O'Reillies that hes involved in cutting edge genic research
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 04:22 pm
The introductory paragraphs of the news story give a simplified explanation of the scientific problem:

Quote:
How evolution cooks up life's endless variety
(Gareth Cook, Boston Globe, March 19, 2006)

To understand one of the latest theories in evolution, consider the "Iron Chef" television show.

Dueling chefs are given a featured ingredient and then race to create dishes. They both start with, say, lobster meat, but one might produce a seaweed salad while the other would make corn and lobster dumplings.

Substitute genes for ingredients, and it explains how humans can be so similar to chimpanzees -- sharing more than 98 percent of our genetic code -- and yet so different. In becoming human, people didn't evolve a lot of new genes, scientists believe; they made different use of the ones they had.


Later the newswriter explains how the findings address issues brought up by intelligent design proponents:

Quote:
The new research on gene expression could provide an answer to a puzzle that has confounded biologists since Darwin and that has recently been seized on by proponents of intelligent design: the idea that life is too complex to have happened without the help of a higher being. With the "survival of the fittest," it is easy to see that a lion that runs a little faster will be a better hunter and thus be more likely to survive and pass on this attribute to its offspring. Over time, these improvements accumulate, and lions evolve.


The newswriter describes specific findings from recent research conducted at Duke University and how these findings shed light on one of the puzzles of evolution:

Quote:
In December, researchers at Duke University announced some of the first concrete evidence for this idea. They focused on a gene that makes a protein involved in memory and perception. Although the protein is exactly the same in human and chimpanzee brains, the team found that humans have evolved minute genetic changes that cause brain cells to make, or "express," more of the crucial protein, perhaps helping the human brain to work better. A little more of these proteins here, a little less of those proteins there, and -- voila -- a chimp becomes a human.

The chimpanzee research is part of a profound conceptual shift. Biologists have long suspected that "gene expression" -- the way cells make more of some proteins and less of others -- could be important in answering many biological questions. But now some biologists believe that this process could play a vital role in explaining the way one species evolves into another with sometimes shocking speed.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 04:24 pm
I have been in a lot of dance-halls and sleazy bars and suchlike in my time fm and none of them were what you might call posh or refined. There's very little concerning genetic research that I don't know about within the physiognomy department. Looking at the insides has never been to my taste. I'm happy to leave that to others of a less aesthetic disposition that I have.

Perhaps focussing on the insides results from having become baffled and confused by the outside which I must admit is not too difficult to do.The organic surface chemistry is an ambiguous phrase.
The physiognomic research of external surfaces is standing on many shoulders as well.

But who can say which of the two sides will ultimately benefit the human race the most or,if you like,damage it the least.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 04:30 pm
CORRECTION: I had meant to show 2 paragraphs in the middle quote of my last post. (The newswriter explaining how the findings address issues raised by intelligent design proponents):

Quote:
The new research on gene expression could provide an answer to a puzzle that has confounded biologists since Darwin and that has recently been seized on by proponents of intelligent design: the idea that life is too complex to have happened without the help of a higher being. With the "survival of the fittest," it is easy to see that a lion that runs a little faster will be a better hunter and thus be more likely to survive and pass on this attribute to its offspring. Over time, these improvements accumulate, and lions evolve.

But where do these changes come from in the first place? In other words, how could it be that a single, random genetic change would be able to improve on something so complex as, say, the legs of a lion, with all of their interconnected joints, tendons, nerves, and muscles.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 19 Mar, 2006 06:20 pm
wande wrote-

Quote:
The newswriter explaining how the findings address issues raised by intelligent design proponents):


He has explained sweet Fanny Adams to me.He just has a job known in the trade as "filling up white space",on the reverse side of which are the ads for the decking and the "Quicklite" barbecue ignition systems.

It entertains people thinking that they understand things.I think it boosts their egos or something.It gives them a warm glow of self satisfaction.

It's pitiful really but there it is.
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