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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 10:57 am
timber,

Leaving that all aside, is there anything nice you can say? Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 11:08 am
Laughing - No, I think that pretty much covers it - Laughing
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:45 pm
What I don't understand is why,after all these years of exclusive evolution teaching and

Quote:
teachers to "minimize dogmatism while promoting student inquiry, healthy skepticism and understanding."


are the anti-IDers on this thread so given to assertions and dogmatic presumptions and the pro IDers are well known for their reasoned and gentlemanly debating methods.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:26 pm
http://www.chuggnutt.com/images/wandg.jpg

Pro-ID gentleman and Anti-ID dog
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:48 pm
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
Darwin relied upon morphology to make the distinctions which lead him to develop a theory of descent with modification by natural selection (as did Wallace). Modern biologists investigate evolution at the molecular level by mapping genomes.


Some of our youngers viewers might not realise the convenience of the above statement for anti-ID propaganda.

What it really means is that unless we are modern molecular biologists mapping genomes for a living we are no longer qualified,or even expected,to offer inputs into this debate.

The language and the concepts in the expert field of genome mapping are beyond our capacities and it therefore follows that we have nothing of interest or relevance to contribute.

These experts have developed an esoteric and highly specialised vocabulary which is incomprehensible to outsiders who are,in the main,taxpayers.The experts are,in the main,beneficiaries of budget funding.

As Gouldner might have said;such modern technical language challenges settled elites and authorities.A sort of gradual coup d'etat.It may be likened to the argot or slang of other sub-cultures.You are only "wise" if you possess the knowledge of it and it enables practictioners of this argot to communicate secretly with each other even within the hearing of non-experts who may well include 99.5% or more of the population, and the writer of the above quote. It often happens,according to Cohen,that the jargon becomes "fetishized" with constant use and sometimes its meaning is forgotten.

Sociologically,it enables cabals of experts to take and use these specialised skills in the furtherance of sectional aims and to gain power which,as even our youngest viewers know,eventually corrupts.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:59 pm
Hence the importance in anti-ID propaganda of the phrase "peer reviewed".

Is is often seemingly taken for granted on this thread that someone with a "degree" is an expert.
This,in my experience,is a very long way from the truth.There exist,and it is well known,some very wonderful ways of obtaining a degree which do not necessitate the mastering of any particular skill or body of modern knowledge.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 02:25 pm
For you "younger viewers":

wandeljw wrote:
http://www.chuggnutt.com/images/wandg.jpg

Pro-ID gentleman and Anti-ID dog
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:36 pm
spendi
Quote:
Hence the importance in anti-ID propaganda of the phrase "peer reviewed".

Name for me, a better system to avoid junk science publication?
Quote:
These experts have developed an esoteric and highly specialised vocabulary which is incomprehensible to outsiders who are,in the main,taxpayers.The experts are,in the main,beneficiaries of budget funding.
. Im sorry, werent we just informed of a 1.6 million dollar grant to study and "report back" on ID as a credible theory? Try as they might, they cant throw enough money to paint that pig. Only hucksters and TVAngelical miniters would be lining up. The rest of us would feel a bit foolish and quite ridiculous.

The only ones who are wsting money that I see, are the hugely funded ID foundations and Creation institutes . They spend as much as Procter and Gamble on their advertising budgets.
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As Gouldner might have said;such modern technical language challenges settled elites and authorities
but he didnt.
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A sort of gradual coup d'etat.It may be likened to the argot or slang of other sub-cultures.You are only "wise" if you possess the knowledge of it and it enables practictioners of this argot to communicate secretly with each other even within the hearing of non-experts who may well include 99.5% or more of the population,


Hell , you could be talking about auctioneers and railroad enginemen with this. Shiboleths are the norm for any mildly advanced technology .
Quote:
Sociologically,it enables cabals of experts to take and use these specialised skills in the furtherance of sectional aims and to gain power which,as even our youngest viewers know,eventually corrupts.


Well gosh spendi then we should all go back to the dark days when the serfs gathered filth and ate rancid meat. They had nowhere to plug in their Midieval TVs.
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What I don't understand is why,after all these years of exclusive evolution teaching and


Once again, your ignorance of the issue's history shows brightly.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:08 pm
Course, anybody can speak in tongues...
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:29 pm
And it pays good money if you're good at it and that's for sure.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 08:21 am
a little training and some creativity wouldnt hurt.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 09:00 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
spendiQuote:
Hence the importance in anti-ID propaganda of the phrase "peer reviewed".


Name for me, a better system to avoid junk science publication?


That is beside the point I made.Which is that "peer reviewed" is a nice way of saying "all pissing in the same pot" which is a common phrase often heard said about politicians.

Quote:
Quote:
These experts have developed an esoteric and highly specialised vocabulary which is incomprehensible to outsiders who are,in the main,taxpayers.The experts are,in the main,beneficiaries of budget funding.

. Im sorry, werent we just informed of a 1.6 million dollar grant to study and "report back" on ID as a credible theory? Try as they might, they cant throw enough money to paint that pig. Only hucksters and TVAngelical miniters would be lining up. The rest of us would feel a bit foolish and quite ridiculous.


Again beside the point I'm afraid.Anyway-1.6 million isn't enough to buy a footballer good enough to play in the bottom half of the league.


Quote:
Quote:
A sort of gradual coup d'etat.It may be likened to the argot or slang of other sub-cultures.You are only "wise" if you possess the knowledge of it and it enables practictioners of this argot to communicate secretly with each other even within the hearing of non-experts who may well include 99.5% or more of the population,


Hell , you could be talking about auctioneers and railroad enginemen with this. Shiboleths are the norm for any mildly advanced technology .


Complete red herring and you know it.Clutching at straws.The comparison is ridiculous.

Quote:
Quote:
Sociologically,it enables cabals of experts to take and use these specialised skills in the furtherance of sectional aims and to gain power which,as even our youngest viewers know,eventually corrupts.


Well gosh spendi then we should all go back to the dark days when the serfs gathered filth and ate rancid meat. They had nowhere to plug in their Midieval TVs.


Missing the point at the other pole.It is to prevent us serfs from gathering filth and eating rancid meat again that we need to watch these experts.Appeasers always get a good stuffing.

Quote:
Quote:
What I don't understand is why,after all these years of exclusive evolution teaching and


Once again, your ignorance of the issue's history shows brightly.


It's a pity you didn't quote correctly.For those interested it is up above.

My ignorance only shows brightly to those who think it does.If it does show brightly viewers hardly need it pointing out to them and I certainly don't.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 10:27 am
Quote:
Again beside the point I'm afraid.Anyway-1.6 million isn't enough to buy a footballer good enough to play in the bottom half of the league.


And yet it's about the same as the annual research budget one of the world's foremost researchers into tropical diseases. Perhaps your sense of how much money goes toward individual scientific endeavors is a bit skewed, non?
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patiodog
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 10:28 am
Quote:
Again beside the point I'm afraid.Anyway-1.6 million isn't enough to buy a footballer good enough to play in the bottom half of the league.


And yet it's about the same as the annual research budget one of the world's foremost researchers into tropical diseases. Perhaps your sense of how much money goes toward individual scientific endeavors is a bit skewed, non?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 11:01 am
Money is a commensuration device in a godforsaken world.It measures what the consensus values objectively.One dollar is the same as any other dollar.

If the annual budget of a researcher into tropical diseases is $1.6 million and Wayne Rooney's services cost Manchester United 20 times that it simply means that the consensus values Mr Rooney 20 times as much as it does the researcher with no B/S in the form of esoteric language,however fancy,intervening.

One would have thought that strict evolutionism could come to no other conclusion.

Even the Dover case in it's entirety is overshadowed by Mr Rooney in his shorts by a factor of about 10,at least,and there are a lot more adverts on the reverse side of articles about Mr Rooney than there were on those relating to the Dover case.

If a lawnmower is £399.99 I always think of the number of pints of John Smith's Extra Smooth it is equivalent to.

I know that non-drinking mowers of lawns will search for words to prove that lawn-mowing is a superior behaviour pattern to leaning on the bar having a laugh with the lads but they would wouldn't they.It can only be a belief really.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 11:15 am
Quote:
That is beside the point I made.
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Again beside the point I'm afraid.
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Complete red herring and you know it
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Missing the point at the other pole.
When you post your twadle, perhapswe need a table of contents to follow, since logic has never been one of your strong points
Quote:
It's a pity you didn't quote correctly
Are you saying that theres a technical problem with the quote button, or that you didnt say what I quoted?

I suppose , if we pay what someones really worth then the 1.6 miilion grant should be more like 5.95$ .As far as the soccer player, hes being payed by revenue sharing from the products that sponsor the spectacle. "Keep em drunk and watching", isnt that soccers official motto?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 12:04 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
I suppose , if we pay what someones really worth then the 1.6 miilion grant should be more like 5.95$ .As far as the soccer player, hes being payed by revenue sharing from the products that sponsor the spectacle. "Keep em drunk and watching", isnt that soccers official motto?


Dearie me.The consensus is THE soccer official.As far as the consensus is concerned you can shove your fine sentiments up your duff pipe.It's objective just like you evolutionists like.Are not the changes selected in by evolution of a similar nature.What the consensus of forces gave an advantage to and what the stick-in-the-muds called "twaddle".The consensus decides what "really worth" means not those with an axe to grind.

Can't you face facts or something.

Quote:
When you post your twadle, perhapswe need a table of contents to follow, since logic has never been one of your strong points


Once again,and it is becoming tiresome pointing it out,that is posited on your definition of "twaddle".The "twaddle" was merely an attempt to point out the previous evasions.

Quote:
Quote:
It's a pity you didn't quote correctly
Are you saying that theres a technical problem with the quote button, or that you didnt say what I quoted?


The quote was truncated as you will see if you check.I have no idea what caused it.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 02:12 pm
spendi
Quote:
The consensus is THE soccer official

doesnt consensus imply unanimity of more than one . Or are you just returning to form?
You were making some sense there for a few days. Were you abstaining for lent?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 03:27 pm
Not at all.The consensus is a singularity obviously.One would never say that the consensus are a singularity.

It is a useful concept I have found.I tend to purchase the few things I need from the companies with the largest number of customers.It's only a general rule and there will be the odd exception.

It is fruitful too.Football and cricket are the two most popular spectator sports in England.So one likes them because of that and,in doing so,the games reveal deeper meanings in time and the liking turns to a sort of love.

There is nothing so tiresome in the pub as a geezer who is trying to maintain that his love of a minority sport such as hockey is superior to that of the consensus.His sport lacks certain essentials which add to the appreciation.The role of money say and the wieght of the pressure when large amounts of it are at stake.And there is also media coverage and the way in which popular sports such as the two I mentioned bridge international tensions and create a degree of harmony which is embodied in such things as FIFA and the ICC.

I feel that a wish to differ from the consensus,as some fundamentalist religious sects do,is divisive.ID differs in that way but not as much as scientism.I basically support ID because religious belief holds the majority support irrespective of my views on it's statements.

There's a consensus for pottering about at home but because it gets little play in media it is much under-rated.One can meet interesting Americans on A2K without all the trouble involved is going to have a smell at them in the racoon-pie aftermath settings lovely though they migh look in pictures.

I just discovered reading Lord Avon's memoirs that Maryland has an English coat of arms in its flag.I hope that is still true.Cricketers of America-I call on you to start building a Test Match side by moving to Maryland.Knowing you lot as I do it will probably be achieved in next to no time and then we could get you on a green seamer at Lords and have a good laugh.

I gave the bloke in the pub your recipies for racoon-pie and he's changed his mind about getting away from it all,which is another minority fantasy.

Was I actually making sense for a few days or were just pulling my little leg?
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patiodog
 
  1  
Sat 18 Mar, 2006 03:34 pm
Quote:
Cricketers of America-I call on you to start building a Test Match side by moving to Maryland.


No good. Consensus in Maryland is for baseball, football, and basketball. The relocation of all American cricketers currently residing outside Maryland to the state or even to a single tavern within the state likely would not change this -- not even at the trough should they all choose to urinate in synchrony.
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