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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 09:11 am
spendi, an ignorant absurdity remains an ignorant absurdity whether presented by the unwashed masses, a man of science, a proselytizing religionist, or yourself. I disagree with Mr. Fuller; that some people feel science has lost relevance to them stems wholly from religion - fundamentalist religion - and in threat to society and civilization, there is no greater danger than that posed by fundamentalist religion, regardless the particular sect involved. Jihadis and bible thumpers have far more in common than most realize
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 10:49 am
timber wrote-

Quote:
that some people feel science has lost relevance to them stems wholly from religion -
.

I don't agree with the "wholly" at all.People don't understand science.They are nervous about its methods and conclusions.They feel powerless and alienated by its inhumanity.Agreed they crave also its benefits.They have a schizophrenic relationship to it.It's messages are mixed.They are often told that this or that drug is a wonder cure only to be told when they've been taking it for a few years that it might do them in or turn them into cabbages or somesuch. They pay for a weapons system and then find out it's useless in action. They worry about its capacity to befuddle them in advertising tricks.

It isn't wholly the result of religion.

"Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you."

It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding).Bob Dylan.

How much "ignorant absurdity" do you see?I hope you don't think "ignorant absurdity" is confined to religious beliefs.

You must think our institutions are very fragile if you think fundamentalists can undermine them.Not a chance.Threats to our society come from elsewhere. Television for example and the greed and self absorption it generates.

You're only talking about the science you know about or have been persuaded to accept by various campaigns. Passive smoking has been invented to explain why some people get lung cancer who never smoked and thus take the heat off other causes such as welding or chemical dusts or anxiety.
80 a day people are used to scare 10 a day people.
Have you engaged with Medical Nemesis by Ivan Illich or Food Is A Wonder Medicine by Neal Barnard,M.D.

Illich claims that the medical profession seeks to generate sub-lethal disease in order to have a growing number of long-lived customers who are allowed to die only when their cash runs out or funds from the government to support their treatment is refused.

In Masked and Anonymous a character says that they are building more hospitals to treat the diseases they are creating.

And all done with science's magic mirrors.

There's enough "ignorant absurdity" exposed in that lot to try anybody's patience. You are using religion as a scapegoat.It's too easy. There's no need to think.That's the function of scapegoats.

What do you know about Sexual Stasis:The Source Of Energy Of The Neurosis?There are labs all over the place studying that stuff.

How about Pavlow and stimulus response theory 100 years down the line from his simple studies.He was before the Wright Brothers.Don't you believe in synergy.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 11:12 am
I don't think fundamentalists can undermine our "institutions" - quite the opposite, in fact. While such is their focus and intent, the fundies succeed only in shooting themselves in the foot - repeatedly. As I've said before, I welcome their current tack; it serves well to hasten the eclipse of any political influence to which their cause might aspire. There is synergy at work indeed, and it works to the disadvantage of the luddite religionists.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 11:15 am
I'm not sure that is a satisfactory answer to my dismissal of "wholly".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 11:17 am
timber has a very good point; fundies continue to shoot themselves in the foot by pushing for legislative enforcement of their religious belief pushed as "science." I'm glad they are blind to this simple fact, because they'll continue to make their own efforts worthless/impotent.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 11:41 am
The author of the article we have been discussing blames a "left wing critique of scientific elitism" for the trend to teach creationism. (It sounds like the author may also be a big Bob Dylan fan.)

Other than Bob Dylan, I have never heard any left-wing critiques of science. The promotion of creationism and intelligent design are correctly identified with religious fundamentalists.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 11:56 am
And I have seen, wande, anti-creationism and anti-ID identified with some pretty strange bedfellows and not only on this thread.

"Let's overturn these tables
Disconnect these cables
This place don't make sense to me no more
Can you tell me what we're waiting for
Senor."

Is not a critique.Dylan,as far as I understand him,is against science in the same way he would be against hammers if they were banging on his head rather than if he was making a shed.

timber wrote-

Quote:
There is synergy at work indeed, and it works to the disadvantage of the luddite religionists.


They can use modern persuasion techniques that science has provided just like their opponents.

It looks like the scapegoat post is being well and truly buried.

How do you explain that lawyers and witnesses in ID v anti-ID probably had similar educations.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 12:02 pm
Equivalent educations? LOL The pro-ID lawyers bring their handicaps to the court room that disregards science, and they argue or demand to have creationism taught in science class without providing any evidence to support such foolishness.

It was never "equivalent education." The IDers started with a handicap, and also ended with a handicap. They still haven't figured out that "creationisem" is not science; that's pretty ignorant.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 12:31 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
It was never "equivalent education." The IDers started with a handicap, and also ended with a handicap. They still haven't figured out that "creationisem" is not science; that's pretty ignorant.


I know it was never "equivalent education".It was "similar".I don't see how there can be such a thing as "equivalent education".

Of course they know that creationism isn't science.Don't be so naive.Why do you keep trying to flog that old chestnut. Are you not aware that this debate has gone way past that stuff.It's a propaganda battle over money and ambition.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 12:44 pm
Tell that to the fundies in the US and the UK. They still don't "get it."
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 01:07 pm
Right.

Then let's all "get it" eh?If it's so right and obvious why not everybody convert to c.i.'s position right now.We can't remain stupid and ignorant and shivering with superstitious fear all our lives when it has been clearly explained to us what we should do.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:06 pm
I am converting to c.i.'s position right now!

How about you, spendi?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:08 pm
The only "superstitious fear mongering" comes from the president of the US. My opinion, BTW, is my own, and doesn't imply everybody else is "ignorant." Your take and magnification on what others say just reveals just how small your brain is.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:15 pm
Oh-I see.

Quote:
They still don't "get it."


Is only an opinion and not a statement of fact.It leaves open the possibility that they do "get it".

If you would make it clear in future I would be grateful then I don't make myself look idiotic.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:17 pm
There's no help for you in any case. Your own posts are your proof of "idiocy."
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:46 pm
Some People Never Learn

Quote:
Have you noticed that the legal battles between science and creationism are often centered on small towns and school districts? That's no accident. It's the circuit creationists prefer to work.

Like the rainmakers and healers that came before them, the creationists arrive in town wrapped in the Bible and put on a dazzling show. They dutifully hit all the churches and revivals--often times with the pastor and elders acting as unwitting accomplices, nodding and smiling by their side. They sell their books and tapes and fill everyone with false hope. And, if things are going really well, maybe the creationists will slither up to a sympathetic school board prospect or mayor and whisper in their ear: "Take on the courts! You'll be famous! You'll be elected to Congress after you win this one!"

Then, if the case goes south--and they all have so far--and a huge legal bill comes due, translating to hundreds or thousands of dollars per homeowner per year in a small district, the instigators slip away with all the class of a bum walking a check at the town diner. And the law can't protect your town from any of this, because it's not illegal for a creationist to make their case, and it's not against the law for anyone listening to be a sucker.

The modern purveyors of creationism, sometimes called "Intelligent Design", are exceedingly good at what they do. They're professionals with polished speaking skills, charming personas, and connections from the Governor's Mansion to the White House. Still, you'd think after the creationists got stomped in Kitzmiller v. Dover, just a few months ago, that at least local school board members would be aware of the possible consequences. That they'd be more cautious on behalf of the tax payers and their own jobs. But some people never learn. Just a few examples:


[Brevard County, Florida] School Board member Amy Kneessy wants the school district to adopt a biology textbook that includes passages on divine creation and intelligent design;

[Boone County, Missouri] How intelligent design and evolution should be taught in Columbia schools dominated discussion as school board candidates ... "I don't want our public schools without God;"

[Kentucky] In January, Gov. Ernie Fletcher endorsed teaching intelligent design in Kentucky schools in his State of the Commonwealth address. A 1990 Kentucky law allows public schools to teach both evolution and biblical creationism.

There are plenty of good reasons to want to avoid being the next battlefield in this culture war. For example, you may be one of the millions who believe in a Supreme Being, but feel that science and your faith are not at odds with one another, and don't particularly want your kids taught the opposite. You may be a Bill of Right's aficionado, or you may know that there is no scientific theory of intelligent design/creationism, and to claim otherwise is a lie.

But here's an even better reason to avoid it: Kitzmiller ended up costing the Dover ISD a million bucks and it cost the pro-creationism board members their posts. And in that case, the winning legal team went easy on Dover out of concern for the innocent taxpayers. They cut the bill in half. Next time it could be full damages, every dime, nickel, and penny of expense incurred, dumped on to you, the taxpayer. And with Dover as a precedent, and given the devastating language and tone in Judge Jones's decision in Kitzmiller, odds are higher than ever that that's exactly what will happen.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 02:51 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
There's no help for you in any case. Your own posts are your proof of "idiocy."


Yes but is that only an opinion as well as my having a small brain and is not to be taken as implying that I actually am an idiot and have a small brain.

If I do have a small brain I suppose it constitutes a disability and it is unseemly to draw attention to such things,or the idiotic nature of someone who has one,simply to cover up the fact that the question of whether self-indulgent whims involving long distance flights are or are not a function of a persistant "addiction to oil" or to offer a very childish attempt to repress that due to an inability to face up to it.

The new leader of the Conservative party,on his first appearence at PMQs,rode to the House of Commons on a bike in order to provide an example of "greener" travel plans to the population and it was his duty to be present in the chamber.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 03:07 pm
Debra Law wrote-

Quote:
Have you noticed that the legal battles between science and creationism are often centered on small towns and school districts? That's no accident. It's the circuit creationists prefer to work.


Isn't it perfectly normal to work the circuits one prefers rather than the one's one doesn't.

Quote:
And the law can't protect your town from any of this, because it's not illegal for a creationist to make their case, and it's not against the law for anyone listening to be a sucker.


If you can't make it illegal then it is the weather.

Quote:
And in that case, the winning legal team went easy on Dover out of concern for the innocent taxpayers. They cut the bill in half. Next time it could be full damages, every dime, nickel, and penny of expense incurred, dumped on to you, the taxpayer.


Aaah!Us poor hard pressed innocent taxpayers.Isn't it a shame.Listen to their sad bleatings.Something should be done about it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 03:10 pm
I rest my case.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 14 Mar, 2006 03:25 pm
That is the normal statement of a debater immediately prior to sitting down with a view to taking no further part in the proceedings.

It is normal to utter it with a self-satisfied smirk denoting supreme confidence.

It is true is it and not another opinion which leaves open,again,the possibilty of its opposite.

We will have to see.
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