97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 08:22 am
UTAH UPDATE
An interesting rebuttal to the arguments on behalf of Utah's anti-evolution bill was published in the Salt Lake Tribune. The author teaches biology at Brigham Young University.

Quote:
Claims made by 'origins of life' supporters don't hold water
(Duane Jeffery, Brigham Young University)

Proponents of SB96, the amended "origins of life" bill presently in Utah's House, have made a number of points in the bill's defense which need clarification.
1. Claim: Since the bill itself does not mention "intelligent design," "divine design" or anything relating to "faith-based interests," the bill is therefore immune to legal challenge.
This is quite incorrect. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the legislative history of such bills is of paramount interest and that religious intent renders a bill unconstitutional. The recent case in Dover, Pa., underscored that point, as the religious motivations of the school board were a major factor in the court declaring their actions unconstitutional.
Statements by both SB96's originator and present proponents make it very clear that religious concerns motivate their actions. The bill is thus very vulnerable to legal challenge and could easily involve the state in a legal battle.
2. Claim: There are no transitional fossils.
This is also incorrect. In the vertebrate lineages, for example, there is a virtually solid line connecting all major groups from fish to humans. Consult any good vertebrate paleontology book. Critics exploit discussions about transitions between individual species, where the issue becomes a matter of definitions and subtle differences in expert opinion. For the major groups (families, classes, etc.) definitions are much clearer and transitional fossils documenting such macroevolution are well-known and recognized. As one example, recent newspaper accounts of dinosaurs with feathers, which connect those stocks to birds, have been well-publicized.
3. Claim: Evolutionists cling to their theory because they don't wish to believe in a Creator.
Reality: Virtually any academic discipline can be used as an anti-religious battering ram: history, literature, economics, art, etc. But such confrontation is not inherent in the disciplines. Nor is it inherent in science. Science is neither theistic nor atheistic; it is non-theistic, just as are mathematics and statistics.
Deity is simply not subject to scientific analysis, and science cannot address the issue directly at all. Many evolutionary scientists have deep religious faith and hold their views in science because of the overwhelming mass of evidence that undergirds modern evolutionary biology, not because of some alleged theological fear. Further, many religious leaders find no major difficulty between their faith and evolutionary science, as today's Evolution Sunday celebrations across our country attest.
4. Summary. First, the Utah State Board of Education already has in place an official position statement that clearly covers all legitimate interests of SB96. It makes clear that science is always subject to refinement, and that religious viewpoints shall be treated with respect and sensitivity.
Second, if developments reportedly appearing in other states (Georgia, Pennsylvania, Kansas) were to happen in Utah, our scientific and economic futures could be compromised. Top-flight scientists and research organizations (and their funds and accomplishments) are reluctant to come to states where science is treated with suspicion and where their children would not receive a high-quality education. Rather, they are attracted to states where science is valued and viewed with openness and public support.
SB96, in both original and amended versions, sends precisely the wrong message. It is not a healthy contribution to Utah's future.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 01:54 pm
HYPOTHESIS.

That wande selectively quotes from sources which he approves of and is thus guilty of the following-

1-a lack of scientific rigour.

2- using a misleading title for this thread which ought to be amended to read-Intelligent Design (faith based interests -see quote) is a load of cods.

In the page and a half of the Foreward to the monumental books The Eden Memoirs there is this-

"When Her Majesty's Government are considering whether or not there is a basis for negotiation,I should like to suggest to my noble friend a test which they might apply:it is whether the agreement for which they are working will serve only to relax tension for a while,or whether it is in the true interests of a lasting peace.We must not perpetrate an injustice in order to get a little present ease:and the Government have to consider whether this decision gives peace,not just for an hour or a day or two,but in their children's time.That is the difference between appeasement and peace."

Lord Avon-Speech in the House of Lords.

So,more in hope than expectation,I will ask once more,what will a religion free society look like in 50 years.

If no religion free society is being envisaged then it follows that a society with religion will follow and in such a case how can it be seriously expected that religious values will not be a pronounced feature of the socialisation process permeating all branches of thought and instruction.To expect faith based interests to be suspended during biology lessons is ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:15 pm
It is ridiculous to attempt to integrate religionism with science, to attempt to legislate any such integration is beyond contempt.

There is no broad societal attack on religion, there is no basis for any such assertion, nor is there any logic or reason to any argument that religionism either has any bearing on any academic discipline beyond philosophy or is a legitmate subject of legislation.

Religionism is purely emotional, a wholly human construct, at best a noble ideal, in practice at root of most of humankind's self-inflicted suffering over the ages.

We'll not soon, if ever, have a religionless society, but the sooner we get past religionists attempting to impose their particular partisan fairytales on society, the better. Of course, that too is at best a noble ideal, and at worst fails to acknowledge the fear and superstition by which humankid has been defined since first we began burying our dead.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:24 pm
timber-

It is well known that the use of emotive language betrays a basic insecurity.

Do you think it bears upon "academic disciplines" that a general breakdown of law and order exists?
Science is dependent upon order in the sense you generally use the word science.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:27 pm
spendi,

We have told you over and over that removing religion from science education does not mean society as a whole is without religion. There is plenty of room for religion in homes and in places of worship.

Did you like the pigeon pie I baked for you yesterday?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:32 pm
wande-

I'm a vegan.

Did you like my pigeon pie post yesterday?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:34 pm
What general breakdown iof law and order, spendi? I would say law and order today is a damned sight better represented than at any time in the past. Some might argue otherwise, and they do so, and are free to do so, by the guarantees and protections provided under the law and order they alledge to be in jeopardy.

To return to the point of this discussion, a piece complimentary to the one most recently offered by wandeljw:

Quote:
Designed to deceive

Creation can't hold up to rigors of science

By John Glennon
CONTRA COSTA TIMES

MORE THAN A CENTURY and a half since Charles Darwin wrote "On the Origin of Species," evolution remains a controversial concept among much of the population. The situation is quite different in the scientific community, where evolution is almost universally accepted. Still, attacks on the teaching of evolution continue.

The more recent criticism of evolution comes from proponents of intelligent design, a new label for creation "science." They claim ID is a valid scientific alternative to explaining life on Earth and demand it be taught in science classes in our schools along with evolution.

Although intelligent design is cloaked in the language of science and may appear at first glance to be a viable theory, it clearly is not. In fact, intelligent design is neither a theory nor even a testable hypothesis. It is a nonscientific philosophical conjecture that does not belong in any science curriculum in any school.

A theory in the scientific sense is quite different from how the word is often used in conversation.

Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. They are based on extensive data and their predictions are tested and verified time and again.

Biological evolution -- genetic change over time -- is both a theory and a fact, according to paleontologist Stephen Gould. Virtually all biologists consider the existence of evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated in the lab and in nature today, and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming.

However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanics of evolution, which are supported by data and are constantly being refined by researchers whose work is subject to peer review.

But there are many established facts concerning evolution, according to R.C. Lewontin, Alexander Agassiz Professor Emeritus of Zoology at Harvard University. He, as do virtually all biological scientists, agree that it is a fact that the Earth with liquid water has been around for more than 3.6 billion years and that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period.

We know for a fact that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old and that major life forms now on Earth did not exist in the past.

It is considered a fact by biologists that all living forms today come from previous living forms.

A fact is not the same as absolute certitude, which exists only in defined systems such as mathematics. Scientists consider a "fact" to be something that has been confirmed to such a degree of reliability and logic that it would be absurd to think otherwise.

Denying the facts of evolution is akin to denying that gravity exists. What is debatable, with both evolution and gravity, are the theories of the mechanics of how each operates.

Supporters of intelligent design vehemently disagree, but they do not offer alternative theories or verifiable data. Instead, intelligent design proponents attack evolution with misinformation, half-truths and outright falsehoods.

Intelligent design does not develop hypotheses nor does it test anything. As such, intelligent design is simply a conjecture that does not hold up to scrutiny.

False arguments

Unfortunately, intelligent design has considerable credibility outside the scientific community by making specious claims about evolution. Below are some of the leading charges made by intelligent design and creationist proponents in the past several years.

• Evolution has never been observed: But it has. Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population of living organisms over time.

For example, insects develop resistance to pesticides. Bacteria mutate and become resistant to antibiotics. The origin of new species by evolution (speciation) has been observed both in the laboratory and in the wild.

Some intelligent design supporters admit this is true, but falsely say that such changes are not enough to account for the diversity of all living things. Logic and observation show that these small incremental changes are enough to account for evolution.

Even without direct observation, there is a mountain of evidence that confirms the existence of evolution.

Biologists make predictions based on evolution about the fossil record, anatomy, genetic sequences and geographical distribution of species. Such predictions have been verified many times, and the number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming and growing, especially in the field of genetics.

Biologists have not observed one species of animal or plant changing quickly into a far different one. If they did, it would be evidence against evolution.

• Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics: It clearly does not. This law of physics states essentially that disorder increases in a closed system. Some intelligent design and creationist proponents say this means that the order required in the evolution of simple life forms to more complex ones cannot take place, at least not on a long-term basis.

What critics of evolution don't say is that the Earth's environment is not a closed system. It absorbs enormous heat energy from the sun, which is all that is required to supply fuel for the evolution of plants and animals.

Order arises from disorder in the physical world as well, in the formation of crystals and weather systems, for example. It is even more prevalent in dynamic living things.

• There are no transitional fossils: This argument is a flat-out falsehood. Transitional fossils are ones that lie between two lineages with characteristics of both a former and latter lineage. Even though transitional fossils are relatively rare, thousands of them have been found.

There are fossils showing transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to whale, the progression of animals leading to the modern horse, and from early apes to humans.

• Theory says that evolution proceeds by random chance: This is an example of a half-truth perpetuated by intelligent design and creation supporters.

Chance is an important element of evolution, but it is not the only thing involved.

This argument ignores other forces such as natural selection, which weeds out dysfunctional species, and is the opposite of chance.

Chance takes place in genetic mutations, which provide the raw material of evolutionary change, which is then modified and refined by natural selection. But even at the genetic level, mutations occur within the framework of the laws of physics and chemistry.

Opponents of evolution argue that chance, even enhanced by natural selection and the laws of physics, is not enough to account for the complexity of DNA, the basic building blocks of almost all life forms. (RNA is the foundation of some microbes). However, there literally were oceans of organic molecules that had hundreds of millions of years to interact to form the first self-replicating molecules that make life possible.

Irreducible complexity

The attack on evolution that intelligent design proponents use most often today is one based on "irreducible complexity." This has become the foundation of their attempts to cast doubt on evolution.

They argue that certain components of living organisms are so complex that they could not have evolved through natural processes without the direct intervention of an intelligent designer.

Michael Behe, a leading proponent of intelligent design, defined irreducibly complex as "a system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."

In other words, irreducible complexity refers to an organism that does something (a function) in such a way that a portion of the organism that performs the function (a system) has no more parts than are absolutely necessary.

The argument made is that the entire system with all its parts, such as an enzyme used in digestion or a flagellum used to propel a bacterium (an example Behe favors in his defense of irreducible complexity), would have to come into being at one time -- a virtual impossibility.

If one of the parts were missing, Behe argues, the system would not be able to function, and thus a simpler, earlier evolving system could not exist.

It is not as easy as it may appear at first glance to define irreducible complexity because there is not a good definition of what a part is. Is it a particular type of tissue, a cell, or segment of DNA? Behe is not clear. But even if he were able to define a true IC system, his argument would fail.

There are several ways an irreducible complexity system could evolve. An early version could have more parts than necessary for a particular function. The individual parts could evolve. Most likely, an earlier version of the system could have had a different function.

This is observed in nature. For example, take the tail-like flagellum of a bacteria, which Behe says supports irreducible complexity. It is used for functions other than motion. A flagellum can be used to attach a bacteria to a cell or to detect a food source.

Thus, a precursor to a more complex flagellum could have had a useful, but different, function with fewer parts. Its function would have changed as the system evolved.

Simply put, the irreducibly complex system argument doesn't work. Most, if not all, of the irreducible complexity systems mentioned by intelligent design adherents are not truly IC. Even if they were, they clearly could have evolved. That is the consensus of almost all biological scientists.

Intelligent design is not science

The theory of evolution and common descent were once controversial in scientific circles. This is no longer the case.

Debates continue about how various aspects of evolution work. However, evolution and common descent are considered fact by the scientific community.

Scientific creationism, or intelligent design, is not science. Believers of intelligent design do not base their objections on scientific reasoning or data.

Instead, it appears that their ideas are based on religious dogma. They create straw men like irreducible complexity or lack of transitional fossils, and shoot them down. They fabricate data, quote scientists out of context and appeal to emotions.

Intelligent design disciples do not conduct scientific experiments, nor do they seek publication in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Still, they have had an impact far beyond the merits of their arguments.

One of their most persuasive arguments is an appeal to fair play, pleading to present both sides of the argument. The answer is no. They do not present a valid scientific argument.

Within the scientific community, there is virtually no acceptance of intelligent design. It has no more place in a biology class than astrology in an astronomy class or alchemy in a chemistry class.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennon is a member of the Times editorial board. Reach him at [email protected].
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:36 pm
spendi,

Your pigeon pie post yesterday showed (to me at least) that you are rigorous about your science.

You once mentioned that you yourself are a science professional. Are you a chemist for a brewery? Guinness, maybe? (Guinness would be awesome!)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:41 pm
wande wrote in exasperated mum style-

Quote:
We have told you over and over that removing religion from science education does not mean society as a whole is without religion. There is plenty of room for religion in homes and in places of worship.


And allowing some questioning of evolution in biology lessons similarly does not undermine science.

IDers have been frequently accused of trying to smuggle religion into science lessons but no mention has been made of SDers trying to smuggle atheism into them and thus opening up the way for a religion free society.Isn't atheism a religion?

Why will you not face the issues and why do you continually resort to abstract,inhuman,pedanticisms.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:45 pm
wande wrote-

Quote:
You once mentioned that you yourself are a science professional. Are you a chemist for a brewery? Guinness, maybe? (Guinness would be awesome!)


Guinness,nice though it is,is hardly "awesome".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:59 pm
timber quoted-

Quote:
It is considered a fact by biologists that all living forms today come from previous living forms.


The trick there is the use of "today".What about the first forms which lived 1.8 billion yesterdays ago.And that is only half of irreducible complexity the other half being how life operates at the cellular level or even inside that.And science will never understand either and therefore alternative ideas have some legitimacy.The fact the myths are invented to give such impossible ideas a type of meaning for the bulk of the population is neither here nor there.Especially when the holding of an accepted communal myth,however far fetched,gives the group more power.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 02:59 pm
spendius wrote:
wande wrote in exasperated mum style-

Quote:
We have told you over and over that removing religion from science education does not mean society as a whole is without religion. There is plenty of room for religion in homes and in places of worship.


And allowing some questioning of evolution in biology lessons similarly does not undermine science.p

Poppycock; there is no question of evolution, there is only the religionist agenda of imposing religion on society, which very much undermines not only science but clearly and unambiguously is an assault on academic honesty and critical thought.

Quote:
IDers have been frequently accused of trying to smuggle religion into science lessons but no mention has been made of SDers trying to smuggle atheism into them and thus opening up the way for a religion free society.

That would be due to the simple fact no such condition pertains outside the specious arguments of religionists, particularly as exemplified by the intellectually luddite ID-iot mob.


Quote:
Isn't atheism a religion?

Most assuredly it is not, nor is agnosticism; they are implicit rejections and repudiations of religions, religionists, and religionism. Only those befuddled by religion contend a ny such absurdity as that those who do not subscribe to religion comprise a religion.

Quote:
Why will you not face the issues and why do you continually resort to abstract,inhuman,pedanticisms.

More poppycock, straw man, and blatant misconstruing of what has been said - though to be charitable, the absurd assertions of religionists in such regard well may be expected and understood; they naturally offer the best they've got.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 03:27 pm
It really is impossible to argue with that stuff timber.

It's as if you think the earth can contain 7 billion people thinking along those lines.

I'm ONLY interested in the functions of belief systems.I don't give a damn what they are.People need comfort from loneliness and fear and they will take it.I see the "addiction to oil" as a type of escape from the terror of raw naked life.Consumerism as a religion.And I can argue functionally for that if I wish.The wild,exploding use of chemicals to escape the human dilemma is another case.

Do uppers and downers interfere with scientific thinking.And I have seen on many occasions the tangle often caused by consumerism interfere with it.And other things.Football is a religion.

I'll think about it in the bath.But keeping up the poppycock chant will not impress me.Nothing is poppycock to me if human beings are doing it or have done it.I'll try to see why.I'm a scientist.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 03:30 pm
spendi
Quote:
science will never understand either and therefore alternative ideas have some legitimacy
.
Thats the kind of dumass statement that just gets scientists all fired up to go to work tomorrow.
Alternative concepts always have a place for consideration. However the word alternative must be modified with "credible". The problem with Creationists/Iders, is that there are so many different"schools" that their worst enemies are themselves. On another thread, an individual has , as a young earth Creationist reversed the evolution/Creation debate by stating, in effect, that everything that ever lived on the planet was created all at once and then through progressive eras of extinction, has reduced the numbers of these species to what we have today. Hes made a role for apparent appearances and rise of whole classes of species , only to be followed by an extinction eventSo, in the fossil records, many organisms (including plants) occupy very brief sections of strata. All this conclusionary , probably from an Activist fossil record that only let certain species "in" when their times came to be entombed. Even though there were elephants in
the Jurassic, they didnt become fossilized until the Oligocene So we never saw them being eaten by dinosaurs. Quite a feat

Then there is another poster who clings to the "life is so perfectlyorganized and in harmony" evidence. That merely is ignorance of chemistry, biology, and structure and it just demonstrates an ability to be easily impressed with what she considers as perfect and harmonious.

Also"Irreducible complexity" has been extensively debunked so that most informed laypeople know it as junk andit is quietly being replaced by "teaching the controversy" as the new battle cry.
Iders and Creationists are running out of spaces from which to demand their rights to confuse our kids.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 04:26 pm
Well fm-

I have a book by my side called The Physiology of Excitable Cells.It is mind blowing and it's 40 years out of date and extremely difficult to make head or tail of.Just the effect of nicotine for example which only has a line or two with about 8 words in it you never knew existed before.And the author writes quite as if his readers understand every word in the book.

I bought for a quid as I thought it might have some useful information in it concerning rumpy-pumpy.
Making them tingle all over has always been a kink of mine.Well-they invite you back you see.

But that's by-the-by.The harmony one of your examples mentioned can be seen quite clearly in there.Where the physiologists are up to by now is anybody's guess but they've been designing the colours on packaging to excite the "excitable cells"
for ages.Disturbances to the harmony may be caused by modes of life.Plants,for example,may be more fragile when forced into non-natural environments for profit.And their disturbances may be passed to those who eat them.That's why free range eggs are dearer that battery eggs.

Yes-I think there is an irreducible complexity to the harmony of life just as I do to that of matter and the universe.

The other person with the reverse extinction theory does sound a bit out of it but one never knows.It's entertaining.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 05:17 pm
wheres that rabbit with the pancake.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 06:08 pm
Quote:
Do as I like when I want to


Well I want to have a pancake on my head.Any objection?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 06:18 pm
go for it, but take a picture would you please?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 06:30 pm
Pictures steal fragments of your soul away and render them two dimensional.Arbitarily chosen symbols simply distort it.

Take Lola's stocking topped leggies as a case in point.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 13 Feb, 2006 08:32 pm
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9199/bunny9hj.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 10/10/2024 at 12:23:56