Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Quote:

Kern County school agrees to stop teaching 'intelligent design'
(JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press, January 17, 2006)
FRESNO, Calif. - A rural school district agreed to stop teaching a religion-based alternative to evolution as part of a court settlement filed Tuesday, a legal group said.
Frazier Mountain High School will stop teaching a philosophy class discussing the theory of "intelligent design" this week and won't teach it in the future, said Ayesha N. Khan, legal director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
A federal judge in Fresno had been scheduled to hold a hearing Tuesday on whether to halt the class midway through the monthlong winter term.
A group of parents sued El Tejon Unified School District last week for violating the constitutional separation of church and state by offering "Philosophy of Design," a course taught by a minister's wife that advanced the theory that life is so complex it must have been created by God.
"The course was designed to advance religious theories on the origins of life, including creationism and its offshoot, 'intelligent design,'" said the lawsuit filed last week in U.S. District Court.
The high school in the Tehachapi Mountains about 75 miles north of Los Angeles draws 500 students from a dozen small communities.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State had successfully blocked Dover, Pa., schools last month from teaching intelligent design in science courses. El Tejon school officials had claimed the subject was proper for a philosophy class.

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Mac-

I'm sorry about the spacing.
I'm a self-taught typist since before I came on here and when I'm thinking the spacing goes clean out of my head.
I'll try harder.

It is impossible to underestimate what Dawkins is trying to do.Compare that programme to Light Fantastic or almost any BBC2 programmes of a similar nature.
It was crass,uninformative,solipsistic and insulting.
The theme was Mr Richard Dawkins with special reference to free luxury travel and chattering class dinner invitations leading to enhanced networking nutrition beds.

Did he mention the shifting northern boundary of the Sahara Desert and the consequent struggle for good land?(Don't be silly spendi--that wouldn't be controversial).

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Gee wande-

Your kids must be bored out of mind.

Was the minister's wife in El Tejon replaced by a scientist's wife?

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spendius wrote:

Was the minister's wife in El Tejon replaced by a scientist's wife?

The class to be taught by the minister's wife was completely canceled. The school agreed not to teach such a class in the future in order to avoid the lawsuit. (The lawsuit was settled "out of court".)

The school is government-operated and therefore would have violated the U. S. Constitution if it tried to teach religious doctrine (even though it pretended the class was a "philosophy" class.)

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What do the kids do then in the time the cancelled class doesn't happen. We can't have them doing nothing now can we knowing what mischievous little blighters they all are.

I didn't actually MEAN a scientist's wife. I used that term as a sort of symbol.

Is the minister's wife miffed do you know. If she is she might be planning revenge. They do you know sometimes. Women are a bit like that.Get them miffed and man watch out. Will any "subsidies" be withdrawn. Just to kick off with.

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wande wrote-

Quote:

The school is government-operated and therefore would have violated the U. S. Constitution if it tried to teach religious doctrine (even though it pretended the class was a "philosophy" class.)

Do you mean it would have viol......ion actually or just in your opinion.I thought that was the argument in essence.You seem to be pre-judging.
Or is it settled?

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True settlement of this scenario can never be attainable

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I'm not so sure about that.

We can decide to wallow in stupidity,idiocy and general all round superstitious nonsense which has brought us to where we are or we can reject all that and put our faith in scientists and hope that they have our best interests at heart.

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Quote:

S.C. science curriculum unlikely to evolve soon
(By Karen Bair, The Rock Hill Herald, January 16, 2006)
The controversy reached South Carolina Dec. 12 when State Sen. Mike Fair, a member of the state Education Oversight Committee, moved that four sentences be struck from high school biology curriculum dealing with evolution and diversity of life. Fair asked that they be withdrawn for further study. His motion passed 8-7.
The state board of education already had approved the science curriculum in two separate readings, but the EOC, while it can't rewrite curriculum, must endorse it. State observers called the move "unprecedented." South Carolina's science standards had just been ranked fourth in the nation in a study by the respected Thomas B. Fordham Foundation. Scientists and educators attacked Fair's motion as a political move by conservative Christians to introduce intelligent design into public schools.
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Fair said Thursday he merely wants a phrase requiring students to "critically analyze" those portions of the evolution curriculum in the four sentences that were pulled. He argues that some portions of Darwin's theory of evolution are unproven and require closer scrutiny.
"I am the guy who is supposed to have caused all this ruckus, and I am telling you this is not about intelligent design," he said. "What we need to teach is all of evolution. It is my contention that this information on evolution has been given as dogma."
*****************************************
Sally Shive, the Rock Hill school district's math/science elementary school instructional specialist, said the district has no particular policy on how to handle children's questions on evolution and religion.
Shive recently taught middle school biology, which includes introductory information on evolution. She began her current position in the middle of last year.
"When I was teaching," she said, "if children asked questions, I would suggest they talk with their parents or their pastors if it was unsettling. I said we have to search out the answer for ourselves."
Laura Howard, who majored in biology and minored in Bible and religion at Erskine College, teaches biology at South Pointe High School and has strong Christian beliefs. She teaches evolution from the standpoint of genetic survival based on ability to adapt to the environment.
"If we were to take it out of the curriculum, our kids are going to be poorer in the view of scientific theory."
The EOC will meet again to vote on the curriculum on Jan. 23.

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wandeljw quoted

Quote:

Fair said Thursday he merely wants a phrase requiring students to "critically analyze" those portions of the evolution curriculum in the four sentences that were pulled.

Their definition of critical analysis is to take the normal arguments among scientists totally out of context and ascribe intentions that theyve never even considered. For example, the discussion regarding theevolution of flight in birds is an open argument among 3 particular scientists that include 2 geneticists and a paleoecologist. When quote mining is practised the one geneticist, taken out of context said something like "I doubt that birds arose from dinosaurs (but the other way around)" The quote miners take only the part that says "I doubt that birds arose from dinosaurs" and then publish some educational "resources" that show that
"Birds from dinosaurs theory not getting off ground" They always use a bit of "headline humor". Then this is handed out and kids in Baptist Churches are then being given material for their brand of "critical thinking"

Its actually hokum and asncse claims, hucksterism plain and simple.

BIOlogical evolution is scientifically settled, its fundamental principle of shared ancestry, is robust and evidence laden. The general public is sensistized by the hucksters to the MORAL implications of the theory . Moral arguments are never settled by scientific inquiry, so, as scientists, we are playing in their court bytheir "design"
However, directed ignorance by the hucsters is totally cynical manipulation of thir religious constituary and is the best working definition of demagogary. .Think about it really, the leaders and the "scientists" of the Creation /ID movement are not comfortable unless they direct the thought of their flocks and do not allow them the opportunity to cobsider the fact filled options. The problem with evolutionary scientists is that (with the notable exception of ncse) there is NO basic literature that is approachable to the teachers. Science is moving ahead in little vacuoles of interest with very few "big picture' advocates. Some state funded research organizations like the state geological surveys , do publish fact sheets and periodic magazines on teaching resources, but still, I dont think that they are enough , nor user friendly enough because they usually dont "talk down" to the public like the Creation resouirces do.
Course, thats just me at 7AM

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spendius wrote:

I'm not so sure about that.

We can decide to wallow in stupidity,idiocy and general all round superstitious nonsense which has brought us to where we are or we can reject all that and put our faith in scientists and hope that they have our best interests at heart.

This statement contains a glaring fallacy, the intent of which is to inferentially praise the "stupidity, idiocy and general all round superstitious nonsense"--to wit, that it has brought us to where we are. The human race has progressed despite the superstitious nonsense, not because of it.

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Once again Setanta's irony detector batteries are flat.

Two bald unexamined assertions have to do service instead.

He takes advantage,as did Mr Dawkins,of his own assessment,or contempt, for the intelligence of his audience. He, like Mr Dawkins,who,incidentally,ought to be removed from his post for that programme,invents his own definition for religion and its functions which can then allow him to knock it down.I gather it is known as the straw man fallacy.He fails to realise,in his eagerness to preen,that such an argument can be heard in every pub in the land and is not beyond the wit of a 12 year old.

He,again like Mr Dawkins,takes very full advantage of the immense difficulties of explaining the role of religion in the development of a culture and of his presumed notion that his audience do not know what teleology is.The role of religion has justifiably been the subject of thousands of books and of the life's work of countless individuals all of which were obviously a complete waste of time when all they need do is consult Setanta to have the enigma solved in a couple of dismissive sentences.

He seemingly cannot see,or he expects his audience to be unable to see,that his second assertion is meaningless unless the word "progressed" is defined. One suspects also that "human race" relates only to himself and his immediate surroundings.

Just to ask for clarification of Setanta's notions of the shift from the Merovigian culture of Europe into the Gothic phase,a relatively easy task, without any reference to Christianity,of which both world views were ostensibly a part,is likely to bring forth more ignorant invective and useless assertions. As also would a request to discuss the essentially Magian nature of the world in which Jesus is said to have lived and to contrast it with the Faustian world spirit with its seeds entirely rooted in the Gothic soil of landscape.

For all Setanta's rightly lauded knowledge of history in magnificent detail,comprising incident after incident,he does rather seem to me to have completely failed to grasp or even grapple with its inner meanings and the total process.This is quite obvious from the second sentence of his post.

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Spendi wrote:

For all Setanta's rightly lauded knowledge of history in magnificent detail,comprising incident after incident,he does rather seem to me to have completely failed to grasp or even grapple with its inner meanings and the total process.This is quite obvious from the second sentence of his post.

Which is an hilariously ludicrous remark coming from someone who also wrote:

Quote:

Just to ask for clarification of Setanta's notions of the shift from the Merovigian culture of Europe into the Gothic phase,a relatively easy task, without any reference to Christianity,of which both world views were ostensibly a part,is likely to bring forth more ignorant invective and useless assertions. As also would a request to discuss the essentially Magian nature of the world in which Jesus is said to have lived and to contrast it with the Faustian world spirit with its seeds entirely rooted in the Gothic soil of landscape.

Mumbo-jumbo does not constitute perceptive historical synthesis--never has, and it never will.

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spendius,

Interesting historiography debate between you and setanta.

My concern has always been that you adhere to a small group of social historians (Spengler, Veblen, and Bob Dylan). Is my perception of you correct?

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Setanta-

You might save face to your own satisfaction with these infantile assertions but as far as I'm concerned you get more and more ridiculous with every effort.

I don't see what you are trying to prove by that last post which once again completely relies on underestimating your audience.

Are you not aware that Cultures have "Prime Symbols" and that somehow they had to arrive at them in their own particular landscape and wear them in the form of architecture,and art in general, and that these Prime Symbols have a directional aspect in time just as "getting laid" doesn't and thus development potential subject to evolution's law. I realise how easy and convenient it is not to be aware of such things,or to pretend so,as it allows a dilettante approach to scholarship scope to pose as erudite in the company of those who don't read.

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If one reads Germania by Tacitus, one learns that the Germanic tribes encountered by the Romans in their expansion had resort to a "royal family" or clan in time of need to provide a war leader, a "King" or a Graf. The tribes which confronted Caesar and his successors--the Chattii, the Cheruscii, the Suebii and those among the Ubii and the Treverii who did not compound with the Romans for a share of Gaul--were ground between the upper millstone of tribal pressure form the west (a reverberation of the Gothic migration which began in the valley of the Elbe in about 800 BCE and continued for nearly a millenium) and the nether millstone of Roman Expansion. The result was a tribal confederation from the fragments who called themselves Franks--which is to say, free men. They rather quickly fragmented into Salian Franks and Ripurian Franks, the former invading what became Belgium and northern France, and the latter remaining in the lower Rhine valley. The resorted to the Merving clan or royal family when choosing a war leader at need.

When the Huns rode west on their doomed expedition into Gaul, the Roman commander, Aetius, called upon the Salian Franks to join him in opposing them. They agreed, and chose a war leader from among the Mervings. We will likely never know the man's true name, but the Romans referred to him as Merovius--hence, the establishment of the Merovingian dynasty. It was not, however, a dynasty of Kings as we would know it, as the authority of the Mervings was no better than the authority of any emergency rulers among the Germans--it was a post not unlike the post of Dictator among the early republican Romans. But with the conversion to Christianity by Clovis, the Mervings became a royal dynasty as we would know one--the prostelytizing Christians depended upon Clovis and his Merovingian successors for their protection, and the Mervings depended upon their religious authority for a claim to permanent magisterial power. The most important office in the administration of the Frankish monarchy was the Mayor of the Palace. Pepin the Elder (sometimes rendered as Pippin) was Mayor of the Palace to the last Merovingian King, and he deposed him in his own personal favor. As he was the great grandfather of Charles the Great--Charlemagne--whose name was given to the new dynasty, Pepin was the first of the Carolignian Kings.

The end of the Merovingian dynasty took place in the Gothic era, and bears no relationship to either the advent nor the end of the Gothic period. The Gothic period refers to the period after the collapse of Roman authority in the west, at a time when the Visigothic, Ostrogothic and Vandal war leaders made themselves Kings in the former provinces of the Roman empire in the west, especially in North Africa and Iberia.

As usual, Spendius regales us with meaningless blather, and his silly and obscure references to Magian and Faustian periods in history are as bootless as his nonsense about the Merovingian dynasty and the Gothic period.

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Wandel, in suggesting that Spendius is capable of debating history with anyone, including the dog who now lies sleeping comfortably at my feet, you do him an honor which he does not deserve.

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setanta,

Have you ever noticed, like I have, that spendius exalts Veblen, Spengler, and Bob Dylan? He seems to derive his viewpoints from only those three. (spendius, you should correct me if I am wrong about this.)

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wande wrote-

Quote:

My concern has always been that you adhere to a small group of social historians (Spengler, Veblen, and Bob Dylan). Is my perception of you correct?

Not at all.The three you mention are people who have made a careful study of the world but there are others in my reading of a similar nature.Mailer,Flaubert,Stendhal,Rabelais,Ovid,Frank Harris,--this is daft.I've read so much it isn't true.I own four or five thousand books all carefully chosen from second hand book fairs at which I often spent whole days trawling.I think a good half of them have been swept from your library shelves by the PC brigade.I read Eco's The Island of the Day before over Christmas and you can't get more
eclectic than that.I've been trying to find someone who can explain it for me on the Books forum but so far no takers.

I particularly favour those three though because of their style-their realisation.Proust is another whose style I much admire but his cynicism is somewhat too corrosive for A2K.

I just love reading.It is an activity which any self respecting sloth would approve of had it the wit to do so and one can keep an eye on the sport and the news and trends generally.It saves me a fortune and a vast amount of useless effort such as is entailed in holidays or car worship (self worship actually).

But I hesitate to recommend it because the money I've saved is invested in the stock market,as was Proust's,and if the rest of you behaved like myself and dear Marcel that mighty institution would disintegrate and I don't want that.

So keep up the good work.Just cut out pontificating on matters you haven't studied.

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Mailer, Flaubert, Stendhal, Rabelais, Ovid, Frank Harris and Umberto Eco--not an historian among them--but certainly no shortage of gasbags. No wonder you like them.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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