SD wrote wrote:
Notice the link between self-discipline and a spiritual dimension.
It makes one wonder whether rejection of spirituality is simply a self-serving justification for the opposite of self-discipline which is self-indulgence.One would suppose that with regular items on English programmes relating to obesity,effective ending of marriage and record levels of energy consumption, and thus poison production, in the USA, a powerful lobby would exist to downgrade any signs of spirituality.The honourable Judge Jones has given this lobby a boost recently and one presumes therefore that he belongs to it.
Self-discipline is the key word. Without it, one usually cannot progress in most phases of life be they material or spiritual. If you want to make a case that there is a lobby which aims to downgrade any signs of spirituality thereby encouraging self-indulgence, a consequence of this self-indulgence would be a reduction in material progress as well. Doesn't look like the USA as a country is seeing a reduction in material progress.
Confusion is one means of reducing self-discipline. More(as compared to, say, 100 yrs ago) people are aware of the methods of science irrespective of their grasp of those methods and more are willing to question religious dogma. Given that most progress in the material world has been due to people who are willing to question their or the societies beliefs and have the self-discipline to achieve things based on their beliefs, one could argue that by trying to popularize ID, the ID proponents are in fact trying to confuse people who are willing to question things and make progress in the material world. In that case, it would be ID proponents who are trying to work against self-discipline by creating confusion and by implication(analogous to what you said) are working towards self-indulgence. Then, since self-discipline has been suggested to have a spiritual connection, it would appear that ID proponents are working against spirituality as well.
I am not trying to argue in favor of who is trying to support self-indulgence but it would appear the self-discipline point of view could be used both ways.
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A good example of self indulgence running riot is the continued fatuousness and excruciating boredom of some of the contributions to this record breaking thread.It is as if some people think that their voice should be heard despite them obviously never having made the slightest effort to study the profound themes involved in ID and religious matters generally or even to read posts on the thread with any attention.
It is probable that might be the opinion (to some extent) of some contributors to this thread on your and others posts.
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We are dealing with social phenomena in the here and now and the future is the field of play.Anybody not addressing him or herself to that might just as well be shouting at the sky.
I have nothing against the suggestion that ID could be a social phenomena, as long as the proponents of ID do not call it science and try to impose it on the masses as science.
-Off for a while-