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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 10:32 am
Quote:
Intelligent design: religion or science?
(By MARILYN H. KARFELD, Cleveland Jewish News, January 13, 2006)
Religion, education, law and, above all, politics have played a role in shaping Ohio's science curriculum, said panelists at a Temple Emanu El forum this week on the constitutionality and instructional value of teaching intelligent design in biology class.
Late last month, a federal judge barred the teaching of intelligent design in Dover, Pa., public school biology classes, ruling that it unconstitutionally endorses religion, specifically Christianity.
On the strength of that decision, critics of an Ohio master biology lesson, "Critical Analysis of Evolution," which encourages students to examine alternate theories to evolution, vowed to challenge the lesson. In court, if necessary.
This week, they watched as the Ohio Board of Education (OBE) voted 9-8 to keep the controversial lesson. Most scientists oppose the lesson because they say it uses concepts straight out of intelligent design literature and allows a pseudo-scientific rehash of creationism to creep into high-school biology classrooms.
Two board members were absent, including Cuyahoga County representative Virgil Brown Jr., who voted in the past to delete the lesson, said Patricia Princehouse, Case Western Reserve University evolutionary biologist. She's hopeful that the full board will vote next month to eliminate the lesson.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which helped sue the Dover school board, says it will next turn its attention to the Ohio lesson plan with an eye to litigation, Princehouse said. The watchdog group sought an injunction yesterday against a California high school that is teaching intelligent design as a scientific theory, but doing so in a philosophy class.
The Ohio model lesson has similarities to the Dover intelligent design policy struck down by Judge John E. Jones III, said civil rights attorney Avery Friedman, one of four panelists at Temple Emanu El.
Ohio's lesson is "creationism by stealth" and violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and will "certainly result in federal litigation," said Friedman. "Ultimately, the OBE and individual defendants will lose." He said taxpayers would end up owing millions of dollars to satisfy the judgment.
Noting that Judge Jones is a church-going "staunch conservative Republican appointed by President George W. Bush," Friedman said his decision "while not binding, will without question be used by other federal courts because of its lucidity and impartiality."
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 10:44 am
Quote:
He said taxpayers would end up owing millions of dollars to satisfy the judgment.


Who will they be owed to?

Miles Copeland in The Game of Nations lays heavy stress on "who gains?"
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 11:48 am
spendius wrote:
Quote:
He said taxpayers would end up owing millions of dollars to satisfy the judgment.


Who will they be owed to?


Lawyers and court costs?
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crashlanded vr2
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:37 pm
SD wrote wrote:

Notice the link between self-discipline and a spiritual dimension.

It makes one wonder whether rejection of spirituality is simply a self-serving justification for the opposite of self-discipline which is self-indulgence.One would suppose that with regular items on English programmes relating to obesity,effective ending of marriage and record levels of energy consumption, and thus poison production, in the USA, a powerful lobby would exist to downgrade any signs of spirituality.The honourable Judge Jones has given this lobby a boost recently and one presumes therefore that he belongs to it.


Self-discipline is the key word. Without it, one usually cannot progress in most phases of life be they material or spiritual. If you want to make a case that there is a lobby which aims to downgrade any signs of spirituality thereby encouraging self-indulgence, a consequence of this self-indulgence would be a reduction in material progress as well. Doesn't look like the USA as a country is seeing a reduction in material progress.

Confusion is one means of reducing self-discipline. More(as compared to, say, 100 yrs ago) people are aware of the methods of science irrespective of their grasp of those methods and more are willing to question religious dogma. Given that most progress in the material world has been due to people who are willing to question their or the societies beliefs and have the self-discipline to achieve things based on their beliefs, one could argue that by trying to popularize ID, the ID proponents are in fact trying to confuse people who are willing to question things and make progress in the material world. In that case, it would be ID proponents who are trying to work against self-discipline by creating confusion and by implication(analogous to what you said) are working towards self-indulgence. Then, since self-discipline has been suggested to have a spiritual connection, it would appear that ID proponents are working against spirituality as well.

I am not trying to argue in favor of who is trying to support self-indulgence but it would appear the self-discipline point of view could be used both ways.

Quote:

A good example of self indulgence running riot is the continued fatuousness and excruciating boredom of some of the contributions to this record breaking thread.It is as if some people think that their voice should be heard despite them obviously never having made the slightest effort to study the profound themes involved in ID and religious matters generally or even to read posts on the thread with any attention.


It is probable that might be the opinion (to some extent) of some contributors to this thread on your and others posts.

Quote:

We are dealing with social phenomena in the here and now and the future is the field of play.Anybody not addressing him or herself to that might just as well be shouting at the sky.


I have nothing against the suggestion that ID could be a social phenomena, as long as the proponents of ID do not call it science and try to impose it on the masses as science.

-Off for a while-
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:14 pm
Interesting Crasher-

I don't think you quite understood me and I'm not sure I understand you.

What is "material progress"?
Most of our media is loaded with encouragement to self-indulgence.I didn't say I disapproved.I mentioned some negative factors which have synchronised in American life.There may be others.I have no doubt there are positive factors as well.The negative factors being the price paid for the positive ones which the consensus agrees to.Fair enough.Is it fair enough geographically though.

And there have been breakdowns in material progress before only next time the residual problems are much bigger.

I find your 2nd para very difficult to follow but I think there is some truth in the last sentence.It is one I have only hinted at previously.

But self-discipline is self-discipline and one might expect to find the best example for it within a Church which requires its officials to take vows of chastity and poverty rather than those where diamond rings are worn with snazzy suits and having a few wives or whatnot.Far be it from me to suggest that proponents of ID are self-disciplined.I don't know any.You are nearer than I am to them.
Do they look self disciplined?
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talk72000
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 11:11 pm
For gossake nobody is telling people not to teach Creation in Religious classes. It seems like the case of some boys or girls wanting to use the bathroom of the opposite sex and crying foul.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 06:49 am
wandeljw quoted
Quote:
?Critical Analysis of Evolution,? which encourages students to examine alternate theories to evolution, vowed to challenge the lesson. In court, if necessary.


As the recent issue of the NCSE Report stated:
"Critical thinking is an important component of a good education.Critical thinking about evolution must start with a sound understanding of what evolution is and how contemporary scientists view it. Critical thinking aids recently offered to various school bords consistes of misinterpretation of science research about biological evolution (key word, they LIE) They confuse active discussion among scientists over the details of evolutionary change with a disagreement about whether evolution has occured. This is not critical thinking, its hucksterism"
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 07:53 am
Quote:
They confuse active discussion among scientists


How on earth do they manage that when scientists are so expert and always on the ball.

They don't confuse me.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 10:37 am
well youve demonstrated your own question. I couldnt have explained it better, so there.Whats on first?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 10:51 am
P-Q4.

Hey-only kidding.I gave up chess when I realised how scientific it was and they could get computers to do it.It is more interesting with pieces which only move of their own volition and not necessarily in straight lines and which have a wide variety of options.

What does "What's on first?" mean?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 11:05 am
http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/images/122006/contest_bear.jpg
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Sat 14 Jan, 2006 01:23 pm
spendius wrote:
What does "What's on first?" mean?


http://images.art.com/images/-/Abbott-Costello---Whos-on-First--C10000829.jpeg
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:14 am
A section out of AA Gill's television review column in this week's Sunday Times Culture Magazine-

Quote:
Scientists all over the nation must hold their heads and groan whenever Richard Dawkins appears on television, as he did in The Root of All Evil? (Monday, C4). He is such a terrible advertisement, such an awful embarrassment, the Billy Graham of the senior common room. His splenetic, small-minded, viciously vindictive falsetto rant at all belief that isn't completely rooted in the natural sciences is laughable. Dawkins is a born-again Darwinist, an atheist, so why is he devoting so much blood pressure and time to arguing with something he knows doesn't exist? If it's not there, Richard, why do you keep shouting at it? He looks like a scientific bag lady screaming at the traffic, and watching him argue with a fundamentalist Christian, you realise they were cut from identical cloth, separated at birth. Dawkins is, of course, the archetype of a man who protests too much, and I'd say he's well on his way to, if not a Pauline, then at least a Muggeridgian conversion. Any day now, he'll be back on telly quoting CS Lewis.


hehehe!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:26 am
Gotta agree. Years ago there was a movie about a demagogue "talking head" . The movie was called "A Face in the Crowd" starring Andy Griffith in one of his best roles ever, and typifies the rise of the messanger over a once reasonable message. Dawkins is to evolutionary science what Rush Limbaugh is to objective political analysis.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:30 am
Wait a minit, Youve got a first baseman playin first right?
Then Whats his name?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 09:49 am
Quote:
'Intelligent Design' Negotiations Continue
(AP, January 15, 2006) FRAZIER PARK, Calif. The group that sued a San Joaquin Valley school district over a class teaching a religion-based alternative to evolution says its trying to negotiate a settlement with school officials.
But if none is reached, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State says it will argue its case against El Tejon Unified School District in court on Tuesday.
That's the same group that successfully blocked Dover, Pennsylvania, schools from introducing intelligent design to science classes last month
The group sued El Tejon school officials last week on behalf of eleven parents opposed to a class on intelligent design at a high school. They say the class was "designed to advance religious theories on the origins of life."
But the school district's superintendent John Wight has defended it as a philosophy class designed to educate students on both points of view.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 10:58 am
spendius wrote:
A section out of AA Gill's television review column in this week's Sunday Times Culture Magazine-

Quote:
Scientists all over the nation must hold their heads and groan whenever Richard Dawkins appears on television, as he did in The Root of All Evil? (Monday, C4). He is such a terrible advertisement, such an awful embarrassment, the Billy Graham of the senior common room. His splenetic, small-minded, viciously vindictive falsetto rant at all belief that isn't completely rooted in the natural sciences is laughable. Dawkins is a born-again Darwinist, an atheist, so why is he devoting so much blood pressure and time to arguing with something he knows doesn't exist? If it's not there, Richard, why do you keep shouting at it? He looks like a scientific bag lady screaming at the traffic, and watching him argue with a fundamentalist Christian, you realise they were cut from identical cloth, separated at birth. Dawkins is, of course, the archetype of a man who protests too much, and I'd say he's well on his way to, if not a Pauline, then at least a Muggeridgian conversion. Any day now, he'll be back on telly quoting CS Lewis.


hehehe!
Glad a little cheer came into your life Spendi. Dont forget to set the vid to 8pm channel 4 tonight, for second dose of Dawkins patented antiseptic to religious infection. In tonights episode, Dawkins does battle with a real life Creationist. I'm taping it for religious education lessons for school tomorrow. Smile
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:00 pm
Well Steve-I suppose it will help avert the gaze of the little monsters from the Demeter cult at Eulusis,the Isis nonsense and the Venus temples of Ancient Rome.

One mustn't get too scientific with young partly formed minds must one?

Thank for reminder.I'll try to watch but I fear it will be a little simple for my attenuated tastes.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 16 Jan, 2006 03:27 pm
Which I have now done.

It isn't the sort of thing I would ever normally see.
It was incredibly naive I'm afraid.I had wondered why it was on before the 9pm "watershed" and now I know.There was not even a passing nod at cultural Darwinism or of where we would be now,starting from where organised religion started,without organised religion.The section about the chimps was utterly ridiculous.I never once heard a hint of what the historical process of the the last 5,000 years ought to have been like in Dawkins's view given the barbaric temperment of the people who lived in it or any idea of the difficulties in redressing that which Christianity is in the process of doing.There wasn't even a recognition that a process was going on.It was the voice of pure microcosmic personality assuming everyone has a similar personality.To be a bit blunt it was two fingers up to the human race which is to be expected from an elitist in a cloistered environment.

From another perspective it was solely concerned with people who didn't "work".With people who use words of dubious value to get a living.

It's production values obviously resulted from the alloted money having been used for other puposes.
Parts of it were no better than an enthusiast's home videos.It is worth noting also that the commercial breaks added very little to Channel 4's credit balance.And that it went out against the most popular programme on British television.It must have had a very small audience

I also felt that an attempt to cover such a subject in this way is profoundly insulting to the intelligence and to our ancestors.
It was hardly even a caricature.

I would take the class you mentioned onto the football field and teach them real fair play under stress.I wouldn't show a class Root of Evil.
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2006 11:14 am
Spendi, I think you underestimate what Dawkins was trying to do, and in the time available to him.

He skated over plenty of things, but I think the chimps (no doubt some people were offended at the comparison, and no doubt that was a deliberate aim) served quite well to illustrate the point he was trying to bring out: that societies promote altruism, mutual cooperation etc and identify and punish wrongdoers without there being any need for a religion to be involved.

Also Spendi, may I just remark that since you evidently intend your posts to be read, it would be so much nicer and helpful in that aim if you would just put a space after a full stop.

(I actually prefer two, but the program will not permit that...it's a bit old-fashioned, I think)
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