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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 06:55 pm
Ditto.

Bedtime here too.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 08:27 pm
talk72000 wrote:
Law of Conservation of Energy

This law states that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It can then be stated that 'creation of the universe' is in violation of this law therefore a god could not have created this universe. The Big Bang as viewed as a series of expansion and contraction of the universe does not violate this law but to theorize that the Universe was created by a Big Bang violates it.

The universe according to this law means the universe always existed.


I don't think the law of Conservation of Energy applies outside of the Universe.

Time itself is contained within the Universe, and since you can't conserve anything without relation to time, I don't see how it could apply.

Most people forget that it isn't just space which is expanding, but timespace, and time itself doesn't exist outside of, or before, our Universe. (all of this is said from the point of view of current standard scientific theory of course).

Science can not speak to things outside of the Universe or before the Big Bang. Conjectures can be made, nothing more.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 09:34 pm
The Universe is everything. Anything else is conjecture.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 10:12 pm
talk72000 wrote:
The Universe is everything. Anything else is conjecture.


I thought I said that Wink
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talk72000
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 10:25 pm
I am tired after work. You got me. :wink:
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talk72000
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 10:29 pm
By the way I believe (small b) there is a God but it is just my opinion and belief despite all the logic. Come judgement day I might not come off that well.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 10:46 pm
I'm tired too. Here's something a bit more fun.

Enjoy. Smile
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talk72000
 
  1  
Wed 11 Jan, 2006 11:29 pm
It's scary for it would have tragic consequenceS with such a faulty outlook.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 02:47 pm
New federal lawsuit challenging the teaching of intelligent design in a public high school. This school was trying to teach it as philosophy rather than science:

Quote:
California Creation Class Taken To Court
(UPI, Jan 11, 2006)
LEBEC, Calif. - Jan. 11, 2006 (UPI) -- Parents in a small California school district are challenging a high school class there that teaches intelligent design in a philosophy class setting.
Eleven plaintiffs have filed a lawsuit in a U.S. District Court in Fresno, Calif., saying the course "Philosophy of Design" violates the U.S. Constitution, the Los Angeles Times reports.
Intelligent design is the belief that the world is so complex that an unnamed being must have created it.
The plaintiffs are parents of children at Frazier Mountain High School in Lebec, Calif., 63 miles north of Los Angeles in the Tehachapi Mountains.
A course description distributed to parents said the class will use scientific, biological and biblical arguments against the theory of evolution.
The lawsuit also complains that special education teacher Sharon Lemburg will instruct the class. She has a bachelor of arts in physical education and social science, but no degree in science, religion or philosophy.
The lawsuit says she is the wife of the minister of a local Christian fundamentalist and pro-creationist church.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 03:00 pm
wandeljw wrote:
New federal lawsuit challenging the teaching of intelligent design in a public high school. This school was trying to teach it as philosophy rather than science:

Quote:
California Creation Class Taken To Court
(UPI, Jan 11, 2006)
LEBEC, Calif. - Jan. 11, 2006 (UPI) -- Parents in a small California school district are challenging a high school class there that teaches intelligent design in a philosophy class setting.


I guess the ID people will now have to prove that ID is a valid philosophy, and that its main purpose in philosophy class is *not* to promote a religious belief.

That could be tough when the local Christian Fundamentalist minister's wife is teaching the class.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 03:29 pm
Correct, rosborne. Dover was a case of religion disguised as science. This new case appears to be religion disguised as philosophy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:22 pm
wande-

You really don't know what I'm talking about do you?

If you did you wouldn't keep going around and around this circle of quoting some itsy-bitsy news reports,getting a positive and predictable response from a fellow SDer and then replying in a positive and predictable fashion along the lines that religion isn't science and getting a pos......you know what I mean.

Are you being PMed these reports from SD contacts and playing the same game as the fundamentalists.You might have a reputation as the guy who puts SD friendly reports out into the world.
Is that possible?

You must not be able to make head or tail of my posts.Sheeesh!
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 06:30 pm
ID is no less a philosophy than are those of Jacob Amman or Menno Simon. "separatists" have religious and life philosophies. As long as theyre not in my face MPTE.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 06:56 pm
I'm afraid that the above mentioned personages have not yet showed up on my radar so I can't complain that they are in my face.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 07:29 pm
spendius,

The news item I posted shows a new facet in the "culture wars". I may not have always understood your posts, but I thought you would be interested in this slight shift in America's culture war.

When I first saw the news story, I thought the same way as farmerman. (There seems nothing wrong with classifying intelligent design as philosophy.)

Later today, I read other reports on the California case that gave additional details. The purpose of the school's "philosophy class" is to present alternatives to evolutionary theory. The alternatives support the religious doctrine of creation. The idea behind the class is again to denigrate evolution science.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 09:33 pm
I see no problem in that. All it takes is some kids with some speaking and reading comprehension skills and , theyd ice that class because theyd read theIst Amendment in class and ask whadda hells the teacher trying to accomplish by forbidding other philosophies. Im not taking any place off the menu where ID can be discussed. Its a philosophy(albeit a kind of crutchy one) and it is taken directly freom the 1920's edict that Evolution COULD NOT be taught anywhere in schools in many states. Kids have gotta learn to deal with this stuff somewhere. As long as its not dealt with as science, then Im cool with it.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Thu 12 Jan, 2006 11:30 pm
It would be fun when a kid asks how god came to be and who created god and where did he come from and prove if god exists as there doesn't seem to be any miracles any more.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 01:34 am
It shou;dn't be a problem for a teacher who assumes the universe just "poofed" itself into existence.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:27 am
The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy is neither created nor destroyed. If you can demonstrate it false then we have a perpetual motion machine.

It also means that Universe could not have been created so there is no 'creation theory'. The Universe has always been there.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 13 Jan, 2006 07:15 am
Askesis is an unusual word not to be found in some major dictionaries.

Quote:
1 entry found for askesis.
Main Entry: askesis
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a practice of severe self-discipline or ascetism for spiritual reasons; also written ascesis
Etymology: Gk.


So there is one.

Notice the link between self-discipline and a spiritual dimension.

It makes one wonder whether rejection of spirituality is simply a self-serving justification for the opposite of self-discipline which is self-indulgence.One would suppose that with regular items on English programmes relating to obesity,effective ending of marriage and record levels of energy consumption, and thus poison production, in the USA, a powerful lobby would exist to downgrade any signs of spirituality.The honourable Judge Jones has given this lobby a boost recently and one presumes therefore that he belongs to it.

A good example of self indulgence running riot is the continued fatuousness and excruciating boredom of some of the contributions to this record breaking thread.It is as if some people think that their voice should be heard despite them obviously never having made the slightest effort to study the profound themes involved in ID and religious matters generally or even to read posts on the thread with any attention.

They do not seem even to be aware that opposition to spiritual values is a fundamental core belief of bourgeois revolutionaries of every stamp and that such opposition is always derived from city values and is set up to take power from the land elites and the religious elites and hand it to business elites which,of course,control media.

Whether God or the Universe exists or not is of no consequence whatsoever.Such things are red herrings.They are completely beyond the human scale of thinking and only totally undisciplined minds,spoilt brats one might almost say,would ever think otherwise.It is a form of intellectual self-castration.

We are dealing with social phenomena in the here and now and the future is the field of play.Anybody not addressing him or herself to that might just as well be shouting at the sky.

The rejection of religious values is a mere strategy of the urban mind to impose urban values on rural
settings and thus to exploit the rural economy even more.We have had an exposure of a large duck meat production unit today.Totally disgusting and the direct result of city values,business values,on the rural economy.3 big supermarket chains have said they are not buying from there anymore.Yeah-just because they have been found out.Fancy eating meat of animals that spend their whole lives in misery just because it's cheap.What a loss of personal dignity.Ingesting misery hormones to fund jee-jaw purchases.And that is what the customers of these supermarket chains have been doing.


Has anyone got any obesity,divorce,crime,energy consumption etc statistics state by state?

The attempt to impose business values on other nations is as ridiculous as it is tragic.And when they are imposed on education you cease to have education at all.(See The Higher Learning In America by Thorstein Veblen).
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