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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 07:36 pm
dyslexia wrote:
I was kinda hoping that intelligent design would become common course work in the public schools, I was looking forward to reading the text.


Perhaps a collection of Rube Goldberg sketches would fit the bill.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 07:40 pm
Quote:
The unanimous answer was "that's disgusting".


That gained a burst of laughter. My cat is still up on the top bookshelf, wide-eyed, not at all aloof.

24 hours seems adequate to me as well. But I'd grab at the opportunity like...well, take your pick of grabby analogies.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:31 pm
Nice picture of the various positions on this matter held by a number of religious colleges in the US

Quote:
Case Seen As Setback to Intelligent Design

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 21, 2005
Filed at 8:57 p.m. ET

A federal judge's ruling that intelligent design is faith masquerading as science is being viewed by all sides involved with the issue as a setback, though not a fatal blow, for the movement promoting the concept as an alternative to evolution.

Intelligent design advocates say the judge's lengthy, pointed rebuke of the concept Tuesday in a case out of Pennsylvania may energize supporters, many of whom view his opinion as part of a broader pattern of hostility by courts and the government to religion in public schools.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones criticized the ''breathtaking inanity'' of the 2004 decision by the Dover Area School Board to insert intelligent design into the science curriculum. He called the concept ''a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism'' and said the board's policy violated the constitutional separation of church and state. Intelligent design holds that living organisms are so complex that they must have been created by some kind of higher being.

''This galvanizes the Christian community,'' said William Dembski, a leading proponent of the theory and a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think-tank that promotes intelligent design research. ''People I'm talking to say we're going to be raising a whole lot more funds now.''

From a legal perspective, the decision's immediate consequences are very limited. The school system is not expected to appeal, because several board members who backed intelligent design were voted out of office in November and replaced by candidates who reject the policy.

Yet opponents contend intelligent design advocates have emerged from the case substantially weakened. The ruling will likely influence judges in other districts and discourage other school officials from pursuing similar policies, said K. Hollyn Hollman, general counsel for the Baptist Joint Committee, a Washington group that promotes separation of church and state.

Battles over evolution are already being waged in Georgia and Kansas.

''Because it was a six-week trial, with a lot of testimony from proponents of intelligent design as well as critics from the scientific community, it's going to have a big impact,'' Hollman said. ''It had a pretty full hearing.''

The court defeat also comes at a time when movement leaders are failing to win support even among scientists sympathetic to their religious world view.

The Council for Christian Colleges & Universities, an association of more than 100 U.S. schools, said its members have a wide range of approaches to the issue. In fact, most conservative Christian colleges are far from embracing intelligent design.

The John Templeton Foundation, a major funder of projects that aim to reconcile religion and science, has given none of its $36 million in annual science-related grants to intelligent design research, said foundation spokeswoman Pamela Thompson. ''We do not consider it a hard science,'' she said. ''We feel that it is not something that's important to universities.''

Dembski, of the Discovery Institute, formerly taught at Baylor University, a Baptist school in Texas, but left following opposition on the issue from other faculty members. He now leads the Center for Science and Theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.

The Rev. Albert Mohler, the seminary president, criticized Christian schools for rejecting intelligent design, saying they are intimidated by the ''secular establishment.''

However, Uko Zylstra, a biologist and dean for natural sciences at Calvin College, a Christian school in Grand Rapids, Mich., said intelligent design is not catching on at his college and others because it is based on philosophy, not science.

''We don't think this is how the problem should be articulated,'' Zylstra said. ''The strength of intelligent design is as an apologetic -- that God is the creator, but not a scientific explanation.''

Michael Cromartie, an evangelical and vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a Washington institute that addresses religious issues, said it was important to remember that the movement is ''very, very young.'' He said it was too new to be judged a success or failure.

''There are all kinds of smart, young scientists who are emboldened by the literature they read in the intelligent design movement and they're going to become important professors,'' Cromartie said. ''Dover wasn't a Supreme Court decision. It's a local decision. Local decisions are very important, but they don't end the conversation.''
link
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:37 pm
blatham, Not surprising that the IDers are still clammering to make ID part of our children's science courses. I hope all states have the requirement that their legal loss in the courts will be punished by the payment of all legal fees. Otherwise, they'll keep coming out of the woodworks with no end in sight.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:42 pm
Even after the 1987 Supreme Court decision against creationism, some school boards continued to try to find ways to teach creationism.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 06:27 am
Quote:
of our children's science courses.


so c.i. wrote.

This is the ideology."Our children"."My child".Taken for granted.Child as property.As toy.

Here's a quote from a rather more intellectual source than a retired minor judge.(cue joke-what do you call a judge who was bottom of the class in law school-"your honour".)

"For me,not believing in life after death,the child was my idea of immortality,perhaps the only idea that has any real expression.Take that away and you cut off my life".

And another one-

"Have you never felt ridiculous in your role as father?I know nothing so ludicrous as to see a father leading his child by the hand along the street,or to hear him talking about his children.'My wife's children',he should say...My child!A man has no children.It is women who get children,and that's why the future is theirs,while we die childless."

Both quotes from Strindberg.

Both sides are "using" their children to try to give meaning to their lives once they have a meaningless world on their hands which SDers most certainly do.They wish to believe that they still count as doddering old goats.It's boredom relief.Ping-pong with children as the ball.

In Women In Love,and elsewhere,Lawrence explores the same ground as do many others.The ideology here involves the notion that children owe their parents a debt and both sides hold to it.How very convenient eh.Especially for men.They can become a lifetime creditor just by having a shag.And their own flesh and blood is the debtor.What a load of complete bollocks set up to avoid the real truth and justify spending what ought to be the inheritance of the child on self indulgence.It is the parents who owe the child everything.The child didn't ask to be born.It is a lifetime's responsibility once here.

This whole debate is a sham within a parental ideology of selfishness.The children are pawns as is perfectly plain from this thread and from the productions emanating from the court proceedings.

It is bad enough having to put up with parents at home,who are out of date by definition in a fast changing world, without them extending their unlearned and selfish ignorance into the schools.It is just a larger version of Mrs Whitehouse.What do these people know of life in 2040 which is when these children are becoming effective and when happiness will be even more elusive than it is now.

A child is an individual human being.What have these parents read or studied relating to what is best for their children.Their position in relation to other people's children is even more execrable.We have a system of expertise which we live or die by.Do we not trust it.At least they have studied the problem in great detail.

Parents in education!What a catastrophe.c.i. with his "our children" bullshit and not a dry eye in the room as he lards it up.
And Dover will contain a fair number of parents who agree with me but you won't be hearing from them because the fuss is the thing.What use are people who don't make a fuss to a media hungry for news to satisfy an audience ravenous for distractions.

"As the white line on the highway sails under your wheels,
I've gazed from the trailer window laughing.
Oh,our clothes they was torn but the colours they was bright.
Following them dusty old fairgrounds a-calling."

Dusty Old Fairgrounds-Bob Dylan.(1973)

Check that out.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 06:56 am
Guaranteed that they wont agree with you spendi. Your entire point slips from a feeble definition to a "One sided" argument with dubious quotes of obscure purpose. You are certainly entitled to continue your rather obscure logic but try , at least, to make it appear that you can keep one thought in your head at a time.

ci had no reference t children as property so get off the indignation as a "Jump start" to an apologetic.

By impugning judge jones as a low achiever, you demonstrate your hyperactive ignorance, you should visit some sites that argue otherwise. His was a rather compelling argument (just finished it last night) That outed a cynical bunch of lying short sighted religious fanatics who bent and broke the spirit of the commonwealth Law to establish their narrow world view. They apparently even lied in their platforms with which to get elected. It always amazes me that some of the mst scurrilous acts are commited in the name of the highest motive. You, by your silly indignation, may rank yourself in with them, that, like your fondness for wearing soft frilly ladies underwear , would not surprise me. Before you continue with further hugely unsupported attempts at making an argument , perhaps you should read the document at hand.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 07:10 am
I have some e-mails from colleagues whove all read the decision and, to paraphrase the consensus, Judge Jones did a better job at summarizing the salient points of the ID movement and its antecedents better than most scientists could. The reason, KNOW WHAT DETAIL IS IMPORTANT TO AN ARGUMENT AND LEAVE OUT THE REST. The ability to LEAVE OUT all the superfluous detail in his opinion connects the points of his argument much better than if he would have, Like i probably would have anyway, slog along with every steenking item of ID history. Weve come away with a quiet respect for this judges abilities at analysis and report of findings.Our technical writinglooks more like a phone book with minor details and made-up words.

Even though this decision stands for a small part of south central PA (sort of defined by the drainage area of the Lower Susquehanna River) , it will represent a hugely troublesome precedent to those similarly organized. Dembski had said last evening that "this would result in the raising of huge amounts of funds on behalf of ID groups who dont want their rights trampled" Fisrst its an issue of equal compelling scientific "evidence" , now its morphing into civil rights.

The Creationists dont believe in, but their practices clearly demonstrate the processes of evolution.
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 07:49 am
farmerman wrote:
The Creationists dont believe in, but their practices clearly demonstrate the processes of evolution.

Laughing
A penetrating observation.
Well said that man !
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blatham
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 07:54 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
blatham, Not surprising that the IDers are still clammering to make ID part of our children's science courses. I hope all states have the requirement that their legal loss in the courts will be punished by the payment of all legal fees. Otherwise, they'll keep coming out of the woodworks with no end in sight.


ci

My guess is that this will slow them up considerably, likely putting the kibosh on numerous court actions that would otherwise have perculated up. Can't speak to the legal costs issue other than hoping as you do that those costs find a deserving home.
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blatham
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 07:59 am
farmerperson

Nice reminder on the effectiveness of being succinct. In fact, it is more than effective, it is aesthetic. I think I would slice a month off the end of my days in exchange for sitting here in New York and listening to Lincoln's great speech.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:03 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Before you continue with further hugely unsupported attempts at making an argument , perhaps you should read the document at hand.


I have better things to read than that two-bit flannel which will all be forgotten as soon as you find another issue to squabble over or this debate gets into second gear.Reading that is like running on the spot in front of a full length mirror.I read to find out things I don't know not to have what I think confirmed over and over and over.

Quote:
The Creationists dont believe in, but their practices clearly demonstrate the processes of evolution.


So social evolution is equated with evolution right there.Is social evolution intelligently designed?

Quote:
By impugning judge jones as a low achiever, you demonstrate your hyperactive ignorance, you should visit some sites that argue otherwise.


I didn't impugn the judge and thus my "hyperactive ignorance" wasn't demonstrated.Not that I deny it mind you.Nice smear though is "hyperactive".Are all posters "hyperactive" or is it just me?Why should I visit these sites.I already know what they will say as you have given me the basic idea.He agrees with you,and your colleagues, and is therefore a good and wise gentleman.Do you send e-mails to each other to flatter and network.

Quote:
His was a rather compelling argument (just finished it last night) That outed a cynical bunch of lying short sighted religious fanatics who bent and broke the spirit of the commonwealth Law to establish their narrow world view.


What's the "rather" for.What difference does it make to the argument if the fanatics are as you say which is probably about right.Is an intellectual position discredited simply because some of its proponents are barmpots?What a ridiculous idea.

You do like the smear though fm.It's a dead giveaway you know.I can't see any reason why an SDer would think me wearing ladies' underwear if I chose to had any content in it as an insult unless he was depending on the cultural imperatives of traditional religion.The SD position on such matters is surely one of neutrality.The captain of the England football team is said to wear his wife's knickers beneath his shorts when he plays in big matches.

Any interest in the kids welfare is nowhere to be seen in either of your posts.You are merely concerned with yourself and your investment in a particular ideology.As was Lola.The kid's welfare is the one thought I keep in mind whenever educational issues are debated.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:09 am
Bernie wrote-

Quote:
Nice reminder on the effectiveness of being succinct. In fact, it is more than effective, it is aesthetic. I think I would slice a month off the end of my days in exchange for sitting here in New York and listening to Lincoln's great speech.


surely with tongue firmly in cheek.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:15 am
spendius
Quote:
The kid's welfare is the one thought I keep in mind whenever educational issues are debated.

Great, Well, I must warn you that we have a thing called Megans Law here in the US, you Frederick's wearing old sot.



You could take some lessons from judge jones writing style.


Bernie. Me write good one day soon. Not now, me having too much fun yanking spendi crank.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:20 am
spendi again
Quote:
surely with tongue firmly in cheek.

Lincolns famous speech was about 2 plus minutes long. People said that it was over before they had a chance to arrange the seats for their ladies.

Churchhill was pretty good at gettin to the point as well ( If he wsnt so damn drunk all the time)
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 09:13 am
Quote:
Great, Well, I must warn you that we have a thing called Megans Law here in the US, you Frederick's wearing old sot.


That is scraping the gunk out of the cracks at the bottom of the barrel.Anyone who takes any further notice of the writer of such Goebellian trash deserves all they get.
I wouldn't stoop to such disgusting tactics in order to win the lottery.

The SD position is opened up with its own scalpel.
I wouldn't have a man who said that on my premises.

And I had to Google to find out what it meant.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 09:15 am
Lady Astor once said: "Winston, you're drunk."

To which he replied: "Yes Madame, i am drunk, but you are ugly, and in the morning i shall be sober."

****************************

Lady Astor: "Winston, if i were your wife, i'd put poison in your coffee."

"Nancy, if i were your husband, i'd drink it."

******************************

Telegram, George Bernard Shaw to Winston Churchill: "Enclosed you will find two tickets to the opening of my new play. Come, and bring a friend, if you have one."

Reply: "Cannot possibly attend on that date. Will attend the second performance, if there is one."

***************************

Winston was a hoot.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 09:24 am
Bernie-

I refer you to page 115 in Hofstadter's The American Political Tradition:Abraham Lincoln and the Self-Made Myth.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 09:30 am
set, alas I think that we shall never see a book on "The Wit of GW Bush" at least not one where he said things on purpose.

spendi, Ill wait till you accumulate some more offerings before I comment further. I must go split firewood
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 22 Dec, 2005 09:41 am
spendi, your wait till "this argument gets into second gear" will be fruitless and disappointing. Judge Jones removed its battery, starting motor, ignition, fuel delivery system, and running gear. The ID-iots no longer have a vehicle, they have an Appalachian Lawn Ornament - all they lack now are the concrete blocks on which to mount it per the norms of display for such status symbols.
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