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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 05:57 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Hahahahahaha!!!

You're funny. You don't even understand where you got this expression from, I bet. It's from the Bible. And it was used against Jesus by the same hypocrites that had an absolute mess of their lives yet viewed themselves as clean.

Quote:

Jesus’ audience in Nazareth reacted in amazement to His words in the synagogue, and they began to remind themselves of His personal history: “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” (Luke 4:22). They could point to no sin in Jesus’ past, but they definitely brought up the fact that He was a local boy—as if that disqualified Him from being the Messiah. In essence, they were saying, “Jesus is the son of the local carpenter; He’s common, like us. Where does He get the idea that He’s something special? The Messiah will not be a tradesman!”

Jesus’ response to their reluctance to believe was to make Himself the point of a proverb: “And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country” (Luke 4:23, KJV).

In the proverb “Physician, heal thyself,” Jesus is the physician, and the Nazarenes are demanding that He heal Himself. It’s another way of saying, “We won’t believe a word you say until you take care of what ails you”—except, being a proverb, it’s much less wordy. The basic idea is that no one wants to visit a feverish doctor who is hacking up phlegm. The advice of a dermatologist whose face is covered with an itchy, scaly rash carries little weight. “Hey, Jesus,” the crowd is saying, “before you can help us, you have to take care of your own problems!”

“Physician, heal thyself” also carries the idea of needing proof. The attitude to the synagogue-goers in Luke 4 is that a real doctor should be able to prove his credentials by correctly diagnosing and treating whatever ailment he suffers from personally. To apply the point of the proverb more specifically to Jesus’ situation, “It will take more than words to convince us. If you’re truly the Messiah, prove it by working a miracle or doing something else equally messianic.” As Jesus expounds on the proverb, He mentions the miracles He had done in nearby Capernaum—miracles that the Nazarenes had heard about and wanted to see duplicated in their own city.

“Physician, heal thyself” also communicates a demand that the Miracle-worker work some of His miracles at home. The doctor in the proverb should heal himself; that is, he should practice his medicine at home. In the same way, Jesus should display His power at home, in Nazareth, and not just in other places. In this way, the proverb “Physician, heal thyself” is similar to our modern proverb “Charity begins at home.”

The challenge was clear. The people of Jesus’ hometown demanded signs and wonders before they would accept Him as the Messiah. Jesus gave them no miracles. Rather, He used the examples of Elijah and Elisha to show how unbelief in Israel had caused those prophets to work “away from home” with Gentiles (Luke 4:25–27). The Sabbath crowd listening to Jesus grew irate at the comparison, and they attempted to kill Jesus (verses 28–29). So much for a homecoming party.

Jesus should have been given the keys to the city of Nazareth; instead, He was given skepticism, rejection, and a terse proverb: “Physician, heal thyself.” As Jesus told the crowd just before their attempted murder, “No prophet is accepted in his hometown” (Luke 4:24).

https://www.gotquestions.org/physician-heal-thyself.html
This is not, as you believe, a defense against hypocrites who don't straighten their life out. It's actually something spoken by the very worst sort of hypocrites.

But you know what? We're not put on this Earth to be "normal" or "perfect", we are put on this Earth to be broken. Vulnerable. To have bad things happen to us, to lose our shirt on the stock market. To feel things. To get a bad sinus infection and be full of phlegm. While you're pretending that other people are brilliant when they clearly wrote a paragraph of **** means that you are not admitting your own vulnerabilities, or those of others.

Quote:
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 John 1:8)

This is the teaching of the Gospel. Not perfectionism. Not trying to solve our problems alone. But admitting we do have problems. Wanting others to help them.

You guys think I'm a bigot. But I'm more than happy to admit when my life is a mess. Meanwhile, you jump on people who admit their flaws, as though you never ever did anything wrong. More importantly, you are in denial that you and your friends ever do anything wrong. As long as you behave this way, I can't have any sympathy for you. Because you walk around like I'm trying to accuse you. No, I don't care whether you fix your life or not, I care that you are completely lacking in sympathy to those who do admit they have weird ideas or weirder friends. Nope, instead you use admissions as a weapon against those who made them.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 06:29 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
He does know what he's talking about and I have respect for his ideas. We just disagree on a few things. And that's OK

It's the same with Frank Apisa and me. We do not discuss religious things, I keep my science separate from my beliefs.

I've known Frank for over 20 years, starting at Abuzz.

And for the record: "Intelligent Design" is a dead religious anti-science concept.

And BTW, I AM Dyslexic, too. Screw your bigotry.

One of our favorite people here (and at Abuzz) was Dyslexia, Bobsal. I had dinner in NYC with Dys, his wife, and several other A2Kers shortly before he passed. He would have loved to be part of this discussion!

Anyway...I'm going to broach the subject of religion here for a moment, because there are some thoughts that need be handled. I doubt what I say here will be any stepping on toes.

This entire conversation with The Anointed has become a joke. In fact, it has been a joke of sorts from the very beginning. He (or she) is a provocateur…an Internet troll and very little else.

My stance on the question of whether there is a GOD (or, are gods) is:

I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect that gods cannot exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...so I don't.

(When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)


Some people want to make that “guess.” I HA VE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. Some guess that no gods exist…and some guess that at least one GOD exists. One, seemingly by definition, is correct (obviously, I do not know which).

To pretend, as does The Anointed, that the guess “there is a GOD” is a product of reason, logic, or science…is an absurdity. The only reason I can see for pretending it is such a product, is because “the guess” includes further guesses about the nature of the GOD, which involves (requires) obligations on the part of humans toward the “GOD.” (I acknowledge that earlier in my life, I actually I actually made that guess and accepted that obligation.)

Even if The Anointed could make a reasoned, logical, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator God (something he/she fails to do), it would not extend to any obligations that accrue. The “religious” aspects are still a choice rather than something that reasonably ensues.

Just sayin'!
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 06:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
And I'm just agreein'!

Orson Welles talks about how easy his first success was and how it was never easy again.

I think anointed was advanced from second grade to fourth and success has been hen's teeth, since.

We had a train wreck of a discussion on either Abuzz or Seattlebuzz regarding "knowing Christ" in 2000 - 2004.
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 07:05 am
My atheism is unaffected by hyperbole and would require at least a shred of evidence to move. That said, I only ever engaged in these kinds of threads as a result of a lifetime of real-life bullying from the faux religious. I actually don't mind that believers and fence-sitters exist.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 07:18 am
@edgarblythe,
You are a reasonable man, Edgar.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 07:38 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

My atheism is unaffected by hyperbole and would require at least a shred of evidence to move. That said, I only ever engaged in these kinds of threads as a result of a lifetime of real-life bullying from the faux religious. I actually don't mind that believers and fence-sitters exist.


I know of no fence-sitters in the discussions here. Perhaps you can name one or two.

Most either...

...blindly guess that there is at least one GOD...

...blindly guess there are no gods...

...or refuse to blindly guess in either direction.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 07:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
And they say Occam's razor is sharp!

Good Easter, Frank. It's good to be around you,
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 08:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
I refuse to let you goad me with inane prattle.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 08:17 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I refuse to let you goad me with inane prattle.


Oh...you need goading these days?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 08:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
I used to fall for your baiting people, but what you argue is totally irrelevant to me these days.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 08:57 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I used to fall for your baiting people, but what you argue is totally irrelevant to me these days.


Okay, Edgar, sounds good to me.

And you can stick with your blind guesses that there are no gods. It's cute. Especially since you suppose it is so much more reasonable than the blind guesses that there is at least one GOD.

But if you try to sneak in that nonsense about "fence sitting"...I'm going to react. The "(it) is totally irrelevant to me" pretense is really just a cover up for, "I cannot reasonably argue against that." Just as I prefer not to guess on whether any gods exist, I prefer not to make that kind of pretense.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
In the 50s, a family friend, when he was about eighteen sat in church but he was waiting to be picked up by his brother. The brother made his presence known and the family friend started down the aisle to leave with him. The preacher shouted at his retreating heels, "If you go out that door I hope God strikes you dead." Scared the **** out of him. Run along and play in the traffic, Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:15 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

In the 50s, a family friend, when he was about eighteen sat in church but he was waiting to be picked up by his brother. The brother made his presence known and the family friend started down the aisle to leave with him. The preacher shouted at his retreating heels, "If you go out that door I hope God strikes you dead." Scared the **** out of him. Run along and play in the traffic, Frank.


This is more like it! This is more like the Edgar dealing with his problems that we all know and love.

So...you still think your, "There are no gods" is scientific...or logical...or reasonable?

C'mon. Tell us.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
If after over twenty years of my telling you you haven't learned anything what makes you think one more time could be helpful?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:41 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

If after over twenty years of my telling you you haven't learned anything what makes you think one more time could be helpful?


What makes you think I would suppose you could teach me anything that could be helpful on this topic?
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
It's over, Frank. The allegorical story about my family friend is intended for you. You are the preacher in the story.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:53 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

It's over, Frank. The allegorical story about my family friend is intended for you. You are the preacher in the story.


When you have to explain your allegory, Edgar, you've screwed up.

So...best you trot out your best rendition of, "You just are not smart enough to understand, Frank"...and pretend you are too intellectual to keep arguing with me...too sharp to be "baited" by me.

BUT WAIT...you already have done that, haven't you?

What happened with that?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:56 am
Oops, Nancy just called. Time to go over to our Easter Dinner at the in-laws.

Back for more fun and games in a few hours.

Wink
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 09:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Flailing like a fish on the beach. I'm rather enjoying your attempts to bait me into where you strut around like an end-of-world prophet with his sandwich sign in the middle of 42nd Street.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2022 01:34 pm
Frank said:
Quote:

Even if The Anointed could make a reasoned, logical, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator God (something he/she fails to do), it would not extend to any obligations that accrue. The “religious” aspects are still a choice rather than something that reasonably ensues.

I’ve offered mine, but, you know. #ignore

I do have sympathy for the rejection of religious obligations he cites. That is a whole nother thing, except for the obligation to acknowledge reality, if it happened that the evidence leads to a creator. But when you ignore the evidence, you are without excuse.
 

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