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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
layman
 
  -2  
Sat 27 May, 2017 10:32 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I read the whole thing...


Yet you haven't demonstrated that you understood a word of it. Go figure, eh?

Quote:
The denier that ID is science faces the following dilemma. Either he admits that the intervention of such a designer is possible, or he does not. If he does not, he must explain why that belief is more scientific than the belief that a designer is possible.

If on the other hand he believes that a designer is possible, then he can argue that the evidence is overwhelmingly against the actions of such a designer, but he cannot say that someone who offers evidence on the other side is doing something of a fundamentally different kind. All he can say about that person is that he is scientifically mistaken.


I honestly don't expect you to understand that Farmer, but give it a try.
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 27 May, 2017 10:51 pm
@layman,
my interpretation seems to be a bit more on firmer ground than yours so Id suggest that you REREAD it, comprehension skills may be on a holiday break, or else your string pullers have predigested it for you and theyre all wet.

Have another donut
layman
 
  -2  
Sat 27 May, 2017 10:58 pm
@farmerman,
Yeah, right, eh, Farmer? Rave on.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 11:04 pm
Quote:
ID is very different from creation science....I agree with Philip Kitcher that the response of evolutionists to creation science and intelligent design should not be to rule them out as “not science.” He argues that the objection should rather be that they are bad science, or dead science: scientific claims that have been decisively refuted by the evidence. That would certainly be enough to rule out their being discussed in science courses, although they might be of interest in courses on the history and philosophy of science.

There is a problem, however. The claim that ID is bad science or dead science may depend, almost as much as the claim that it is not science, on the assumption that divine intervention in the natural order is not a serious possibility. That is not a scientific belief but a belief about a religious question: it amounts to the assumption that either there is no god, or if there is, he certainly does not intervene in the natural order to guide the world in certain directions.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 12:05 am
Quote:
My own situation is that of an atheist who, in spite of being an avid consumer of popular science, has for a long time been skeptical of the claims of traditional evolutionary theory to be the whole story about the history of life.

I do not regard divine intervention as a possibility, even though I have no other candidates. Yet I recognize that this is because of an aspect of my overall worldview that does not rest on empirical grounds or any other kind of rational grounds. I do not think the existence of God can be disproved.

Sophisticated members of the contemporary culture have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that they easily lose sight of the fact that evolutionary reductionism defies common sense. A theory that defies common sense can be true, but doubts about its truth should be suppressed only in the face of exceptionally strong evidence.


0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Sun 28 May, 2017 12:27 am
@layman,
The problem with whoever it is who is arguing this is that in facy the argument against ID as science does not rest only on the fact that it springs out of religion.
Quote:
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 12:40 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

The problem with whoever it is who is arguing this is that in facy the argument against ID as science does not rest only on the fact that it springs out of religion.
Quote:



This is a professor of philosophy and law, Thomas Nagel. Of course he is aware of that, but that doesn't alter his point at all.

Quote:
My aim is to address the constitutional issue, but first I want to discuss the relation between evolutionary theory and the despised alternative. For legal reasons that alternative is called intelligent design, with no implication that the designer is God, but I shall assume that we are talking about some form of divine purpose or divine intervention.

Nevertheless, there is a distinction between the arguments for intelligent design in biology and the traditional argument from design for the existence of God. ID is best interpreted not as an argument for the existence of God, but as a claim about what it is reasonable to believe about biological evolution...


"...but I shall assume that we are talking about some form of divine purpose or divine intervention."

For the purposes of this essay, he is adopting the viewpoint of many ID opponents, even though he thinks they mischaracterize its nature, get it?

He himself opposes ID theory. He is not advocating it. He is merely addressing the topic which is raised by the thread title. Is ID science?
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Sun 28 May, 2017 01:10 am
@layman,
My computer stopped allowing me to type an answer, had to reboot, so that answer was only half made.. Years ago, when confronted with the fact that ID was not t estable, they came up with two criteria which were testable, irreducible complexity and absence of evolutionary antecedents. All the initial "I'll know it when I see it", and all subsequent supposed examples were tested and flunked. Ireducible complexity wasn't, evolutionary antecedents were found for every proposed exemplar of ID. Testability is a major component of the scientific method, and so far ID, which its proponents considered "self-evident" in its early stages. has proved anything but. It hasn't passed any tests. Scientifically it just doesn't wash.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 01:20 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Years ago, when confronted with the fact that ID was not t estable, they came up with two criteria which were testable, irreducible complexity and absence of evolutionary antecedents. Testability is a major component of the scientific method, and so far ID, which its proponents considered "self-evident" in its early stages. has proved anything but. It hasn't passed any tests. Scientifically it just doesn't wash.


As I said in my first post on this (Nagel) topic:

Quote:
Nagel says those who claim ID theory is not science overlook the fact that the very same "problems" they are objecting to are also present in what they pronounce to be "real science."


That aside, your claims, even if true, are irrelevant to the issue being discussed. You are simply claiming that it is "bad science," which is what Nagel says the argument SHOULD be. That's his point.

It is wrong to say it is "not science," even assuming it's "bad" science.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 01:37 am
There's a relatively recent article that was published in the Boston Globe that explores the issue of what ID theory is, and what it aint:

Quote:
A better theory of intelligent design

THE PUBLIC perception of intelligent design is that it is a scientifically specious, religiously motivated idea that seeks to explain away the notion of Darwinian evolution through magical thinking. Some incarnations of intelligent design can fairly be described as such

But there are other alternative ideas that can explain the origin of life on Earth. Modern science does offer a tenable theory of intelligent design, one that does not resort to religion or pseudoscience. One needn’t be actively religious, or even reject evolution, to consider the possibility of intelligent design. That intelligence could have originated not on some spiritual plane whose existence can never be proven but simply elsewhere in the cosmos.

We have nothing to fear from teaching a genuinely scientific theory of intelligent design in public schools. In fact, directed panspermia provides an excellent vehicle for students to understand the themes of astrobiology and the complexities of evolution. Let the students examine the evidence and decide for themselves which is more likely: origin of life on Earth, or origin from afar by extraterrestrial beings. Such an imaginative exercise will push students toward the frontiers of inquiry and inspire novel solutions toward a new, scientific theory of our origins.


https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2016/09/10/misra-intelligent/7F0TH4JUoCPDi97VzkSp0M/story.html
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 02:30 am
@layman,
Thanks for the link! The author additionally found out that Climate Change may affect the habitability of other planets - it's not just the Earth we have to worry about.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Sun 28 May, 2017 02:51 am
@layman,
While Ive always included panspermia as an option within the origins of life on the planet, it is NOT a"new and better ID". It merely transfers the origins of life to another place in the Galaxy or universe.

Since the origins of life can be evidenced to have independently occurred several times in our planets history an at widely separated geographic places, and at separate geologic times, the possibility of the "Seeding" of "life" as passengers on incoming bolides has already been listed as a "possibility" and is not a new idea to science. It sits there as on of the many options left to us to investigate .There ARE entire groups of scientists and science majors who have been searching that evidence to see if it "fits".

However, once life had become established on the planet , the major stages of lifes ascendancy have followed the several mass extinctions that were triggered by some natural catastrophes or (initially) there were cellular "catastrophes" such as the "stages of Archean life" or , mpre importantly to us, the introduction of excess gases by cyanobacteria had displaced the 4 stages of Archean life. However any attendant evidence supporting a "scientific ID" hypothesis to explain these "burps of life" has yet to be produced by the ID "brainytrust", even a hint of ideas would help . The burden of proof is not on the magazine "story writers" or Discovery Institute spinnoff papers, its on some lab coopted ID "scientists" to try to actually stop the bullshit and get to work proving all this speculation.

AS Monterey JAck said, Behes "irreducible complexity" wasnt, because itd been several times debunked by several grad students from Vancouver working independently with others from U of Mass.

DIscovery Inst and the Scientific Creationism hotlines strongly make those arguments that you continually clip and post as novel thoughts to consider. However,papers where "belief' is more important than evidence, aint science. Conclusions gotta come only after all the data is in and gets digested and peer reviewed.

Thats another thing, peer review. So far, the very way that ID research gets carried out is to post long winded articles with tiringly big worded concepts that are merely attempts at arguments against existing scientific data, like Irreducible complexity or "specified information". So far theyve not proceeded beyond those meager conversation points. I know that theres some work being done on the "tracks of panspermia" as a paleontology /geochemistry effort . Nobody from "Bob Jones " or "Liberty U" science departments nor any of the vaunted scholars that Discovery parades out every so often seem to be doing ANY real work to try to make , , panspermia seem like an intelligence driven "seeding" of earth. ALSO someone oughta be working on "periodic alien intervention" to provide some evidence that lifes responses to extinction events WAS INDEED, intelligence driven and not mere natural selection by the remaining life forms freely filling in newly open niches. Wheres the workers at??
All ID has given us so far is TALK TALK TALK TALK, LAWSUIT, OOPS < MORE TALK ,STILL ORE TALK, and "lets try to affect some fly over states legislature with some nifty religion friendly laws about ID and Creationism"

Texas , in march 2017 finally shot down another assault on science by such proposed legislation. Fortunately it never got out of committee. (not for the strength of scientific arguments but from fear that the courts would become involved and from the precedent that Dover has presented.


layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 03:05 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
it is NOT a"new and better ID


Of course it's not new, Farmer, and the article makes that clear notwithstanding the "headline." It goes back at least as far as Francis Crick, a militant atheist who was a co-discoverer of the DNA code.

His "reason" for proposing it was that, based on all known empirical evidence, he deemed it virtually impossible for abiogenesis to have occurred on earth.

And, as this author notes,: "The premise of directed panspermia of course requires the existence of intelligence life on other planets."

So what might be "new" (although it isn't really either) is the realization that the I in ID doesn't necessitate a christian deity, that evolutionary "science" is not confined to neo-darwinism, and that legitimate scientific questions can be raised about the role of "intelligence" in the process of evolution on earth.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 03:17 am
@farmerman,
As Nagel mentions, the real underlying issue revolves around the neo-darwinian dogma that all mutations are necessarily "random." With them this doctrine is a quasi-religious matter of absolute "faith." There is good evidence to the contrary, and many highly respected scientists (none of whom subscribe to ID) reject that proposition.

Non-randomness does not "prove" ID, by any means. But it certainly opens up that possibility, whatever the source and the nature of the "intelligence' might be.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 03:45 am
@farmerman,
Farmer, if you don't "learn" anything else from Nagel's essay, you should study on this:

Quote:
I do not regard divine intervention as a possibility, even though I have no other candidates. Yet I recognize that this is because of an aspect of my overall worldview that does not rest on empirical grounds or any other kind of rational grounds.


He resolves the "dilemma" he brought up by:

1. Refusing to acknowledge design as a possibility, but
2. Also refusing to claim that his position is a "scientific" one.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 07:20 am
@layman,
My only beef with evolution is randomness which is an obscure concept, to say the least. That said I have a bigger beef with the idea of a creator or a Mind as being the justification of ultimate reality as the mind cannot justify itself to existence. The mind is a problem solver in the world. Without the world, the mind has no purpose. So, even if we consider the best ID hypothesis out there, which amounts to the ancestor's simulation hypothesis, and lets consider for a minute that there was some sort of minor God, an engineer who created this reality, the argument stands that such engineer is not itself the creator of his reality and is contingent to his own world set of rules. That is to say, Evolution, even if not random, (as a random process would require something like 10 to the power of 250 by chance to create life from proteins), still is the best account of how life developed. It may need some tweaking, but bottom line, when it comes to the final ultimate reality there is mathematical Logic not mind nor creator nor designer at the base of it all. In a timeless perspective of Reality, an eternal Universe is composed of all the archetypes and logical unfolding of things and bio things in their surrounding system. They have context. Natural selection with a not so random variation in gene mutation still is for all purposes the best account of Bio development.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Sun 28 May, 2017 07:29 am
@layman,
so all youve done is move the problem of origins a few planets over, that was my point that you seem to discount. watson and Crick never saw eye to eye. Origins of life is still best explained by abiogenesis.(time and chemistry). The fact that we can track evidence of severa failed episodes of life on the planet, kinda laughs in the face of these "mathematical impossibilities"
However,"Directed " panspermia is the real joke, Its just another tv show about Ancient aliens.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Sun 28 May, 2017 07:41 am
@layman,
Quote:
His "reason" for proposing it was that, based on all known empirical evidence, he deemed it virtually impossible for abiogenesis to have occurred on earth.

Well that settles it. Because HES CONVINCED that its mathematically impossible we better quit looking at star spectra then. Apparently all these amino acids and evidence of their special "linkages" are mere artifacts.
Sounds like the guy in the barber shop who lectured us that bumblebees can never fly.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 28 May, 2017 08:04 am
Don't feed the troll, Boss.
farmerman
 
  3  
Sun 28 May, 2017 09:10 am
@Setanta,
The state legislatures are honing theoir arguments to pass laws that require science teachers in public and stqte funded charters to "fully develop the shortcomings of the theory that is evolution"

The idiots dont know that such shortcomings are already investigated . (Many kids science fair projectw and second year college honors papers focus on jut those things)
Dr Obvious hqs been clipping from partially " quote mined" articles to carry ID blessings. Trolls like Lay , gunga and often Pb o work that disseminates the "word" without really considering the evidence filled alternatives.

Im goin fishin for a day and a half a mile.


 

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