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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jan, 2016 07:22 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Talk about begging the question...


It really is, Leddy. These Neo-Darwinists think they're "answering" a question when they simply assert their speculative beliefs, eh? The "libraries" are just there, see, as any fool knows.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jan, 2016 07:41 am
More from the book reviewer guy, eh?:

Quote:
Many biologists, seduced by this example, persist in believing that the complexity of whole-organism evolution can be similarly understood. It was Darwin himself who started us down this garden path by acknowledging that his ignorance about the mechanism of inheritance left a gap in the theory of natural selection. Into the breach swarmed evolutionists, convinced that the key to evolution was the mechanism of inheritance, genetics.

The principles governing gene function may rule within their limited domain, but they cannot be extrapolated to the level of whole-organism form and function, nor to the interaction of organism and environment. These are governed by other rules discernible only through direct study.


Direct study? Who needs that? The answers were all known in the 1930's, when the modern synthetic manifesto was decreed. You can deduce all the answers from the premises...so need to look at facts, other than to prove what you already know, eh?
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jan, 2016 09:02 am
@layman,
you should really read it entirely and not Cherry pick from comments on a book sellers list.

You like these guys who qe call "Accidental Creationists" because their honsty in phrases can be quote mined so nicely.
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 27 Jan, 2016 09:04 am
@layman,
Quote:
The principles governing gene function may rule within their limited domain, but they cannot be extrapolated to the level of whole-organism form and function, nor to the interaction of organism and environment. These are governed by other rules discernible only through direct study.
as Gould said, "genes are just the bookkeeping of evolution"
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Wed 27 Jan, 2016 10:06 am
From the National Center for Science Education, eh?

Quote:
The long inferential chain

It is very hard to work out the implications of the effects of processes of local variation on large-scale ones. If gene frequency changes in local populations are the foundation for all evolution, it still may not be evident that a new species will arise, that there will be some trends in evolution, or that the patterns of life at any one time will reflect a process of speciation and retention of novelties in large groups.

In part, this is because the chain of inference from population-level genetics to macroevolution is a very long one. Even if genes determined everything about species, we would not be able to generalize and elaborate these facts with any clarity or detail. We are limited in our ability to take all these things into account and lack the time and skills to work it all out fully.

Reconciling the conservative character of genetic transmission with the tremendous potential for evolutionary change that is inherent in the genetic variation among individuals is particularly hard for those who lack a full appreciation of the way genes recombine and affect the development of organisms. This is especially true of secondary and post-secondary students and the general populace.


The allele-frequency definition, if adequate, would leave us unsatisfied that evolution really had been explained. Geneticists have observed in small scale a general resistance of the molecular components of the genome to change from the "norm" or "wild type". For this reason, if any biologist were to be anti-evolutionist, it would typically be one who works at the molecular level, such as a molecular geneticist or biochemist.

http://ncse.com/rncse/21/1-2/defining-evolution

What's up with that? They make it sound like it's all just guess-work and that nobody really knows what they're talking about, eh?


0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 12:32 am
Quote:
A senior investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, and National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, Eugene Koonin, has published two peer reviewed papers on the current status of the “modern evolutionary synthesis,” wherein he states, “The edifice of the modern synthesis has crumbled, apparently, beyond repair. There is no consistent tendency of evolution towards increased genomic complexity, and when complexity increases, this appears to be a non adaptive consequence of evolution under weak purifying selection rather than an adaptation.”

Allen MacNeill [teaching biology at Cornell University, Ithaca, NY] writes on his blog: “Kimura, Ohta, Jukes, and Crow dropped a monkey wrench into the “engine” at the heart of the modern synthesis — natural selection — and then Gould and Lewontin finished the job with their famous paper on The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm.”

“Unless the discourse around evolution is opened up to scientific perspectives beyond Darwinism, the education of generations to come is at risk of being sacrificed for the benefit of a dying theory.” – Stuart Newman ( professor of cell biology and anatomy at New York Medical College in Valhalla, NY). Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education in the US, and others the term “expanded synthesis,” is being promoted with the assurance that neo-Darwinian mechanisms are still being brought into the picture, although in a subordinate way, in order to ease their transition into what is not only a change in thinking about life, but a change in how to think about life in a non-mechanistic, dynamic, and holistic way, e.g. Complexity Philosophy.’

Symbiogeneticist Lynn Margulis, who was awarded the US Presidential Medal for Science in 1999, has pronounced neo-Darwinism “dead”, since there’s no adequate evidence in the literature that random mutations result in new species.

Allen MacNeil, professor of biology and evolution at Cornell University says, "Will Provine and I have been saying that “the modern evolutionary synthesis is dead” for years. The concept of natural selection as the foundation of evolutionary change has been largely superseded.... iconoclasts like Lynn Margulis, Eva Jablonka, Marian Lamb, Mary Jane West-Eberhard, and David Sloan Wilson are rapidly overturning our understanding of how evolutionary change happens at all levels, and how it is inherited."

http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin/2010/12/01/darwinism-dead-at-150/

I guess Richard Dawkins' panadaptionist views have some adherents, like Farmer, but there's a lot of modern evolutionary theorists who aint buyin it. As MacNeil notes:
Quote:

As I have said many times before, when ID supporters set their sights on “neo-Darwinism” as a target for criticism, they set their sights on a model that has been all but abandoned. The carnival has moved on and ID supporters are fighting battles that evolutionary biologists left behind a half century and more ago.


Well, as long as the Farmers of the world are around, the creationists will have someone to fight with, at least, eh? It's fundy on fundy, in a pissin contest to the finish, I tellya!
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 02:48 am
@layman,
Quote:
Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education in the US, and others the term “expanded synthesis,” is being promoted with the assurance that neo-Darwinian mechanisms are still being brought into the picture, although in a subordinate way, in order to ease their transition into what is not only a change in thinking about life, but a change in how to think about life in a non-mechanistic, dynamic, and holistic way, e.g. Complexity Philosophy.’


Eugenie Scott, of all people, is sayin the mechanistic neo-Darwinian theory aint cuttin it, eh? She says we need "complexity philosophy." Aint that what the IDers is there for?
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:01 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

You like these guys who qe call "Accidental Creationists" because their honsty in phrases can be quote mined so nicely.


Yeah, Farmer, if you're gunna quote somebody, best not to quote his exact words with a clear intended meaning, eh? That would be "quote mining," eh? Better to just "quote" a whole book, like you, without saying a word about it while implying that it says something it don't.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:10 am
@layman,
Like any scientific inquiry, we always get a bunch of "lookenpeepers" that quote mine and make-believe that from their comfortable chairs of non-involvement, they can speak for a discipline.

Lots of things have transpired since the 1950"s. Your apparent "excitement" at neutral change is that it gives the Creationists and IDers a "chunk of wall on which to hammer. Its \amusing how you seem to lead to such conclusions when ID has shown NO evidence that its even a valid proposal.
The ID argument(or at least posed through quote mining) is that all of evolutionary theory is falling apart, neutral theory is replacing natural selection. and that is total boneheaded bullshit Lamont. You can quote mine Eugenie Scott and dig up Gould but you will see that the concept of neutralism has been a " storm in a batter bowl".

Science, unlike ID, will ALWAYS have factional family disputes all the better to derive evidence that better explains or reveals natures facts. Noone in science is as "cock sure" as the IDers whose only weapon is "feigned scientific inquiry" Theres really noone in the ID arena who is revealing anything of value.


Your obsession with Kimuras models is interesting. To put a personal point on it I think where you miss the boat( probably by "design" I suspect) is that you are hung up on an "Either/or" mentality (not uncommon where the agenda is to disassemble a perfectly workable theory and insert bogus occurrences of "Irreducible complexity", "sudden appearance' and "ID".
The way most see neutral"ism" is not so much as a replacement of a theory but as a supplemental agent of change. As Sean Carroll patiently explained

"Kimuras "so called neutral theory" is that it provides a baseline assumption of how DNA should change as a function of time,if no other force intervenes . When measurements of change deviate from the path that neutrality would predict, thats a very important signal-a signal that natural selection has intervened. It means that selection has favored a specific change , OR, has consistently rejected others. The overall synthesis , today,(That hich Ms SCott uses as NCSE's position. incorporates more into Darwins theory in means that the old man hD AT LEAST mentioned or developed in Edition 1-6 of "the Origins..."
I had, for years been teaching that we needed to incorporate EXTINCTION as another type of " sorting tool" where "directional" evolution can be envisioned by the species that remain after a selection event in the environment. The directional evolution that is revealed is a limitation on spcific chemical reactions at the gene level, and somatic moleculr level and yes, the phenotypic level.

My sister science of paleontology abounds with a majority of examples through the geologic record that clearly show us that "something has intervened" and the results of the fossil record nicely parallel the earths events of oxygenation-deoxygenation, vulcanism, continental schisms , and "Ice cube earths".

The random occurence of all these edaphic factors kinda amuses me that you guys are required to "force fit " a super meddling intelligence into an environment that can be compared to the response of breaking balls on a pool table

layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:21 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
you guys are required to "force fit " a super meddling intelligence into an environment that can be compared to the response of breaking balls on a pool table


Not sure what you're even talking about, Farmer. If "you guys" is supposed to mean IDer's and if "environment" is supposed to be confined to geological forces at work, I don't see where your comment is either accurate or relevant.

If you're trying to say that "evolution" is a mechanical, billiard-ball-like process, then ya just aint listenin to the experts, like Carl Woese, Eugenie Scott, and many others. Materialistic, mechanistic reductionism aint tellin us nuthin about evolution, like the Neo-Darwinists insist that it does (or should).
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:29 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Lots of things have transpired since the 1950"s


Exactly, and that's why the modern synthesis has crumbled, apparently beyond repair (per Koonin). It aint panned out.

Eugenie Scott was just saying that they are trying to throw a sop to the dogmatic Neo-Darwinists by calling the new approach that is called for an "extended synthesis," rather than joining the many evolutionary theorists who say the modern synthesis is just plain dead.

You should just take the sop and be satisfied, but, nooooooooooooooooo...
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:30 am
@layman,
Its funny, your revealing EUgenie Scotts comment was an essay in the NCSE news letter that barely caught any notice in the sciences. She was hoping for the abandonment of terms , Darwin"ism" and Neo Darwin "ism" as synonymous with evolutionary theory. The funny part is that this was only picked up and run with BY THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE as (I guess) an example of some kind of capitulation to ID, when all she was saying is that the use of the terms has given the ID Creationists with two seemingly conflicting terms that they use as a hilltop assault to assure their members that "evolutionary theory is crumbling".
ID is a small group of well funded idiots that are using this as a totally new strategy to assist in their mission because their "direct approach" at making it sound like ID is a valid scientific discipline has been nicely debunked in the literature and in the courts.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:32 am
@layman,
Quote:

Not sure what you're even talking about, Farmer. If "you guys" is supposed to mean IDer's and if "environment" is supposed to be confined to geological forces at work, I don't see where your comment is either accurate or relevant.
I cant make it any simpler Lamont.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:35 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
... their "direct approach" at making it sound like ID is a valid scientific discipline has been nicely debunked in the literature and in the courts.


Naw, it aint. Evolutionary theorists are proposing all kinds of ways to interpret and understand the "complexity." None of them are saying "God" did it, but it has to be explained, if possible. They're doing "science," like it or not.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:40 am
@layman,
give me one piece of evidence that ID has forwarded that has not been debunked??
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:42 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
give me one piece of evidence that ID has forwarded that has not been debunked??


Debunked? You mean denied or disputed by those so inclined, or do you really mean debunked? If so, show me one piece of evidence that HAS been "debunked."
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:52 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
You can quote mine Eugenie Scott and dig up Gould but you will see that the concept of neutralism has been a " storm in a batter bowl".


Yeah, right, eh? You want me to quote PZ Myers, the hard-core ID-basher and atheist, again, saying that the revolution is over and that neutral theory has won?

You interpret ID theory as being "creation science" advocated by bible thumpers. I don't. Broadly speaking, I just think ID theory is saying that there is "something" (call that something "intelligence, consciousness, or whatever) at work in evolution that is directed rather than all being due to mechanistic forces operating on "random mutations." That premise don't hold no water no more, see?

You just aint listenin. You're the one who sees things in black and white terms. As fundies generally do, eh?


0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:17 am
@layman,
Quote:
“Unless the discourse around evolution is opened up to scientific perspectives beyond Darwinism, the education of generations to come is at risk of being sacrificed for the benefit of a dying theory.” – Stuart Newman ( professor of cell biology and anatomy at New York Medical College in Valhalla, NY).


Hand-waving assertions by dogmatic neo-Darwinists who insist that any suggestion of teleology in evolution is prima facie beyond the bounds of legitimate inquiry aint workin no more, sorry, Farmer.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:36 am
@layman,
One of the funny issues about "Spandrels" is that Gould and Lewontin criticize researchers for focusing on specific parts of a phenotype and making conclusions of an adaptive sense. Their own use of the "architectural feature they use in the title" is an example of adaptation , Since there are many many ways to span a dome.

Gould misses the whole point by ignoring how complez a phenotype is and most researchers are required to focus in on subphenotypic structures.

Rather than "breaking down" any adaptationist or "Darwinian adaptational thinking". Gould doesnt really give any valuable suggestions HPOW TO TEST ANY ALTERNATIVES. (In that he deserved to be labeled the Accidental Creationist).

Id seen the 20 year anniversary version of this essay and whileGould was being honored for being who he was while fighting a terminal prognosis, he never acknowledged the crap he and Lewontin got for what was (agreeably) one of the worst written papaers on the subjct.
As one colleague said about his 20th anniversary version "You really dont expeect Einstein to say OY DID I **** UP" Gould was a pretty self assured dude, and arguing with him always turned into a multi focused discussion with many non scientific references about baseball and Mass politics drug in. He saw himself as the real Renaissance guy .

Really, the only area re"Spandrels" I can agree with is his assertion (rightfully made) that , guys like paleontologists do assign adaptionist traits to exaptations that have nothing to do with adaptation (maybe, maybe not)> HOWEVER, the problem is that this entire diversion has nowhere to go unless someone comes up with a bit of research to show that , say, a trilobites trend to spinosity or torpedo shapes had only to do with staving off predators OR (in the case of the torpedo form) were adapted to swift waters (Even though these forms were a;ways "piled up as cast shells in zones of high energy.

I have neither time nor interest to tempt my recovered ADD mind into such minutae.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:46 am
@layman,
Quote:
Hand-waving assertions by dogmatic neo-Darwinists who insist that any suggestion of teleology in evolution is prima facie beyond the bounds of legitimate inquiry aint workin no more, sorry, Farmer.
so youre just gonna spritz me with your Vedantic science crap and not look up any ID evidence eh Lamont?


 

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