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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 17 Jan, 2016 09:01 pm
@hingehead,
Not exactly sure what evolutionary process you mean, but yes, I do see ID as plausible so why would 'designed in bio-death' be incompatible with that?
hingehead
 
  1  
Sun 17 Jan, 2016 10:19 pm
I was merely stating that one of your 'refutations' for the unguided evolution of a particular physical capability (I think it was flight, or maybe, metamorphosis?) was 'that it was way too 'roundabout'.

But you don't see that 4,000 genetic ways to die (not to mention all the other ways) is too 'roundabout' for intelligent design?

Just noting the mental double-jointedness.


Edit:

Found it!
http://able2know.org/topic/50511-1103#post-6076572
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 17 Jan, 2016 10:34 pm
@Leadfoot,
If you see ID as plausible, who is this designer? Please provide proof.
hingehead
 
  1  
Sun 17 Jan, 2016 11:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm not even setting the bar that high.

I just want to see an experiment designed that could prove or disprove the theory. You know, the way science works.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 07:16 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
I just want to see an experiment designed that could prove or disprove the theory. You know, the way science works.
Gee, that's what 'science' should be able to do. Demonstrate at least the beginning stages of abiogenesis. Since we presumably know how it happened that ought to be easy.

Still no experiment...
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 08:43 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Still no experiment.

AHHHH blisfull ignorance. Its so precious when it comes from those who make-believe they speak for what science should or shouldnt know, yet carefully avoid doing any of that on their own ides.

Last I heard the Crraig Venter "artificial cell" has been a successful trial of abiogenesis (qnd that was like , what, 10 years ago?)

Youve at least been consistent in your "I CANT HEAR YOU" method of debate
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 09:29 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"Still no experiment."

AHHHH blisfull ignorance. Its so precious when it comes from those who make-believe they speak for what science should or shouldnt know, yet carefully avoid doing any of that on their own ides.

Last I heard the Crraig Venter "artificial cell" has been a successful trial of abiogenesis (qnd that was like , what, 10 years ago?)
Gotta love ya fer that Farmer.

With that example, you have proven (at least to me) that you don't yet grasp what is at the core of the ID argument.

The Craig Ventner 'artificial cell' demonstrates the essence of 'intelligent design'. In this case it was mostly 'reverse engineering' (or hacking existing bacteria design) rather than design from scratch. In the 2010 announcement, his talk is chalk full of design and IT language. Watch the TED talk sometime.

https://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life#t-459857

The design and fabrication of his artificial cell was anything but 'without intelligence being involved'.
farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 10:09 am
@Leadfoot,
dont be a card carrying IDiot please. EVERYTHING we do in a lab is "intelligently designed". What did you think?
Even Darwins discoveries in how to affect hybridization of barnacles was an experiment using "intelligence"
Perhaps you are unaware but science tries to use its intelligence to understand how such things are done in nature. Venter's reeingineering of somatic cells and DNA gave further understandings of protein interactions and inheritance .

MY COMMENT was to your IDiocy about "no experiments" (implying"Quahog-like" that there was no data and evidence about evolution and abiogenesis). Since youve already denied the findings of paleontology and the evidence of evolution in your lifetime, you re comfortably snuggled up in your ascientific belief system.
My comment to you stands. Youve got your fingers in your ears and qre yelling "I CANT HEAR YOU" (followed by a few nyah nyahs eh?)



farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 10:13 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
you don't yet grasp what is at the core of the ID argument
Ive been "t the core" of this socialogical phenomenon ever since Philip Johnston re jiggered the movements name from "Scientific Cretionism" to "Intelligent Design"> YOU , like your scarf joint friends have, ever since your losses in 2005, just taken on a new tack wherein youre trying to demonstrate some kind of "programmatic amnesia" so that you can be free to claim whatever claptrap you wish about ID being "a scientific inquiry"
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 11:06 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
MY COMMENT was to your IDiocy about "no experiments" (implying"Quahog-like" that there was no data and evidence about evolution and abiogenesis)
You still don't get it. You are still wedded to the idea that ID = religion. You are unable to see beyond that.

But to humor you:
I was saying there were no experiments demonstrating spontaneous DNA code generation. ie. abiogenesis without adding the information that only 'intelligence' can generate. Can you give an example of that? Otherwise, you & 'science' have done nothing to demonstrate experimentally that abiogenesis can happen without intelligent design being added.
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 12:08 pm
@Leadfoot,
NO YOU dont get it. You cannot state whqt ID is "not about" when history is totally against you. The entire modern ID "movement" has been a clandestine effort to sneak religion into public schools. If you think that you, by the force of ones opinion can change history, you need to buy this bridge Ive got down on Okeefenokee.
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 12:19 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I was saying there were no experiments demonstrating spontaneous DNA code generation
According to the "Observational effect" no observed "experiment" can really be considered "Spontaneous" now could it?
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 12:26 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The entire modern ID "movement" has been a clandestine effort to sneak religion into public schools. If you think that you, by the force of ones opinion can change history, you need to buy this bridge Ive got down on Okeefenokee.
Blah, Blah, bla...

Yeah, I happen to believe there is a God. But I haven't used that as an argument. YOU are the one bringing that up.

Get over it Farmer, you don't have an argument beyond "Don't believe that ID stuff, it's all 'religion.'

I'm trying to stick to science and reason, come join me sometime when you aren't so emotional
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 12:30 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
According to the "Observational effect" no observed "experiment" can really be considered "Spontaneous" now could it?
Now that's just pathetic farmer. Don't get all Quantum Mechanics on me.

As the real experts in that field have said, " If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't".
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 12:50 pm
@Leadfoot,
"Emotional?" ROFLMAO It goes way beyond "Don't believe that ID stuff, it's all religion." ID is religion; there's nothing else to prove. "God created the heavens and the earth, blah, blah, blah....." The biggest problem is nobody can prove their god(s), because they're all created by man.

Here's a list of gods and goddesses. They are all created by man. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gods_and_goddesses
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 01:36 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Now that's just pathetic farmer. Don't get all Quantum Mechanics on me.


actually the "watched pot" homily preceeded any scientific reference by several hundred years. The only one being pathetic was you for trying to assert that only spontaneous reactions would be considered.
Actually, we will develop several scenarios in which prebiotic compounds could assemble and form a living cell but with no guarantee or fore knowledge that any one of them (or several in combination) were even the reactions that happened on Archean Earth.

SCience can only evidence what appears possible, it cant read tea leaves (Thats where our worldviews differ)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 01:42 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:

Get over it Farmer, you don't have an argument beyond "Don't believe that ID stuff, it's all 'religion
Yeh, Ill just have to be satisfied with the evidence, the fossils, the earth history, the genetics of separate but derived species, etc etc etc.


However, I do suggest that you spend some time reading about the history of ID before you try to convince folks what its NOT. (It kinda makes you look really ignorant)
farmerman
 
  2  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 02:14 pm
@farmerman,
Heres an internal paragraph from a Wiki note about the recent history of ID.

Quote:

History of the movement

The intelligent design movement grew out of a creationist tradition which argues against evolutionary theory from a religious standpoint, usually that of evangelical or fundamentalistic Christianity. Although intelligent design advocates often claim that they are arguing only for the existence of a designer who may or may not be God, all the movement's leading advocates believe that this designer is God. They frequently accompany their arguments with a discussion of religious issues, especially when addressing religious audiences, but elsewhere downplay the religious aspects of their agenda.
Origins
The modern use of the words "intelligent design," as a term intended to describe a field of inquiry, began after the Supreme Court of the United States, in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), ruled that creationism is unconstitutional in public school science curricula. A Discovery Institute report says that Charles Thaxton, editor of Of Pandas and People, had picked the phrase up from a NASA scientist, and thought "That's just what I need, it's a good engineering term." In drafts of the book over one hundred uses of the root word "creation," such as "creationism" and "creation science," were changed, almost without exception, to "intelligent design,"while "creationists" was changed to "design proponents" or, in one instance, "cdesign proponentsists." [sic] In 1989, Of Pandas and People was published by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics (FTE), with the definition:
"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc."
Pandas was followed in 1991 by Darwin on Trial, a neo-creationist polemic by Phillip E. Johnson, that is regarded as a central text of the movement.Darwin on Trial mentioned Pandas as "'creationist' only in the sense that it juxtaposes a paradigm of 'intelligent design' with the dominant paradigm of (naturalistic) evolution," but his use of the term as a focus for his wedge strategy promoting "theistic realism" came later. The book was reviewed by evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould for Scientific American in July 1992, concluding that the book contains "...no weighing of evidence, no careful reading of literature on all sides, no full citation of sources (the book does not even contain a bibliography) and occasional use of scientific literature only to score rhetorical points."Gould's review led to the formation in 1992 or 1993 of an 'Ad Hoc Origins Committee' of Johnson's supporters, which wrote a letter, circulated to thousands of university professors, defending the book. Among the 39 signatories were nine who later became members of the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture (CRSC).

During the early 1990s Johnson worked to develop a 'big tent' movement to unify a wide range of creationist viewpoints in opposition to evolution. In 1992, the first formal meeting devoted to intelligent design was held in Southern Methodist University. It included a debate between Johnson and Michael Ruse (a key witness in McLean v. Arkansas (1982)) and papers by William A. Dembski, Michael Behe and Stephen C. Meyer. In 1993, Johnson organized a follow-up meeting, including Dembski, Behe, Meyer, Dean H. Kenyon (co-author of Pandas) and Walter Bradley (co-author with Thaxton and Kenyon of The Mystery of Life's Origin (1984)), as well as two graduate students, Paul A. Nelson and Jonathan Wells.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 02:27 pm
@farmerman,
Getting back to the origin of earth from the bible, it's only 7,000 years old, but science tells us it's more like 4.5 billion years old. When the bible was written, they didn't have the tools to measure the age of this earth, so they created the god and how old this earth was. With so many basic errors in the bible, it's takes a great deal of rationalization to believe in the rest of the bible's stories. What I find fascinating are all those miracles during Jesus' time that abruptly stopped after his death.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 18 Jan, 2016 02:36 pm
@farmerman,
Ive probably posted this several tims before but these are some new "debators" who claim that ID has nothing to do with religion. This is S. Jay Goulds 1994 review of Philip Johnsons DARWIN ON TRIAL.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gould_darwin-on-trial.html
 

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