Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot Quote:
"Your example is why the vetting process here on earth is so through."

Me and you may be through with it but now we have these crazy people "vetting and voting in our place. Maybe we should join them so that they do not out rule us?

The only place you can be truly ruled is in you thoughts. By joining 'them', you submit to their rule.

@Leadfoot,
You're fallaciously trying to isolate the cutting edge from all that has gone before. It's not like the cosmologists just pull new hypotheses out of thin air, pure imagination or ancient myths. They're based on what has accumulated over the centuries, all the way back to the development of the calculus and before.

Do you think cosmologists are free to propose hypotheses that contradict the CMB data, for example? No, they're not. Whereas, if no evidence is required, I could just as well propose a hypothesis about the universe being created/designed by an ancient, invisible, transcendent dragon, who farted everything into being. Without the need for evidence, it would have exactly as much explanatory power as anything else. Once the need for evidence enters the game, though...

Leadfoot Quote:
"The only place you can be truly ruled is in you thoughts. By joining 'them', you submit to their rule."


Try to explain this to a slave or rape victim, then please share your results with me.

Steven Hawking recently said:

"The universe is perfectly capable of creating itself from nothing".

@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot Quote:
"Steven Hawking recently said:

"The universe is perfectly capable of creating itself from nothing". "


He seems to have a belief similar to yours. Has he ever stated that he might be wrong about his understanding?

Have you ever proclaimed that you or should I say God may be wrong in all that you or should I say that what you think God is correct about.

"The only place you can be truly ruled is in you thoughts. By joining 'them', you submit to their rule."

Try to explain this to a slave or rape victim, then please share your results with me.

Rape and slavery can take many forms. I have suffered both. I've been sharing my results.

Rape and slavery can take many forms. I have suffered both

Quote:
"Rape and slavery can take many forms. I have suffered both. I've been sharing my results."


Is this your way of saying you have mastered cognitive dissonance and had an out of body experience so that you did not have to share the reality that your rapist experienced?

The 'out of body experience' felt like an involuntary survival tactic.

Do you truly know what it means to be a slave and love your family?
I learned this from the bible.

Quote:

There is overwhelming evidence that people like you refuse to accept that an "intelligent designer" might design "evolution via natural selection" as its preferred path to where we are.

I try very hard to understand where you are coming from at times but I will say that you are a gentleman and you deserve a lot of credit for that.

The way I see it is, if there is a God is there any other way for him to come into existence other than by natural selection? Or was he intelligently designed?

I do not know how much longer I can wait to hear your side of the story about being a priest in the other thread. You do know I am old and dieing?

Quote:

Why are so many of your type as close-minded as the "the Earth is 6000 years old" people? And considering that you are, why are you so scornful of those others?

Wherever evidence exists, its easy to reject the old stories with which we all grew up and once accepted.

Its like being shown that the moon IS NOT made of green cheese.

IMHO-Theistic evolution is a final holdout position of someone who was shown the pile of evidence that science has in its cabinet, but still desires a nice story with which to identify.

That the pile of evidence clearly shows that various environmental changes account for natural selection and that drift also accounts for evolution without nat selection and that even a bit of Lamarkian thinking is creeping back into science (what with the possibility that a parents "bad habits" are heritable to its offspring), Most reasonable thinking people with a little savvy in this field really dont spend any time trying to "do a best fit" with our old stories of a Supreme Being in charge.

Even most biological scientists who DO profess being "believers" have gone over to a transcendent supreme being.
When its possible to see things evolving due to man made barriers to a species "free ranging" , or seeing evolution responding to continental drift or global warming, its hard to keep coming up with special cases where a supreme being would have any input to these natural situations (Unless of course you feel that everything that happens is under somethings control).
That position, IMHO is just a waste of anyones time .

Your "possibility" of ID keeps shrinking away in relevence as science identifies the specifics of "how" evolution workks.

Still, if all you wish to do is stand around yelling at people without any details besides some blank assertion , you are, I suppose you know, starting to sound like Quahog .
I think your "possibilities" of ID need as much convincing evidence to support as does "interference free" natural election . Standing around name calling without anything deeper is really an easy position. All youve been doing for about 10 years is to take this "copout position" without defending it. No wonder many people think that your just all vines and no grapes.

I think frank is getting very old like many of us and may be struggling with thoughts of death. I myself may start believing in a heaven when the time gets very close. "especially if I get the kind of drugs I would want" [who knows a person may not need drugs when they get that close, The brain may have a natural way of deluding you more and more as the time gets closer.
If I do start experiencing this I hope I will not be here for all of you to tell me otherwise.

Quote:

Do you truly know what it means to be a slave and love your family?
I learned this from the bible.

Interesting question. Probably not what you were driving at, but one of the ways I was a slave was being a slave to the ideal of 'family'. That ultimately lead to my being raped.

In your bible example, were you pointing out the great love of a man for his family that he would willingly remain a slave for them or that the 'rules' about slavery in the bible are inhumane? I'm sure there were masters who were kind and fair with their slaves (which might make one happy to stay) and ones who were unspeakably cruel. My memory is vague on this but I think the awl through the earlobe was a mark for the slaves protection.

I can't wait for the accusations of 'asshole slavery apologist' after that :-)

I would only question whether you are trying to downplay the horrors of rape and slavery. Neither term should be used lightly.

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@Leadfoot,
You're fallaciously trying to isolate the cutting edge from all that has gone before. It's not like the cosmologists just pull new hypotheses out of thin air, pure imagination or ancient myths. They're based on what has accumulated over the centuries, all the way back to the development of the calculus and before.

Do you think cosmologists are free to propose hypotheses that contradict the CMB data, for example? No, they're not. Whereas, if no evidence is required, I could just as well propose a hypothesis about the universe being created/designed by an ancient, invisible, transcendent dragon, who farted everything into being. Without the need for evidence, it would have exactly as much explanatory power as anything else. Once the need for evidence enters the game, though...

Steven Hawking recently said:

"The universe is perfectly capable of creating itself from nothing".

He and you have no more hard evidence of that than I do for God. If you believe it at all, it is based on your 'faith' in Mr. Hawking,

My turn to ask "Where is you evidence?".

Talk to the person who made that claim. The burden of evidence is on the person making the claim. My claim is that you haven't produced any evidence for your god. Your claim is that there is a god. Therefore, the burden of evidence is on you. Your evidence is?