The US, UN & Iraq II

timberlandko wrote:

Soon to be in the news: Popular anti-regime uprising in Basra confirmed underway, similar activity rumored in other "Bypassed" Southern cities.

I've read it too on BBC. But i see the news comes from the Army. I'll just wait 'till i get an honest source!

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frolic wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
Soon to be in the news: Popular anti-regime uprising in Basra confirmed underway, similar activity rumored in other "Bypassed" Southern cities.

I've read it too on BBC. But i see the news comes from the Army. I'll just wait 'till i get an honest source!

I think you mean an unbiased source. (Or are you suggesting that nothing the US Army tells us is true?)

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Frolic

I've read it too on BBC. But i see the news comes from the Army. I'll just wait 'till i get an honest source!

From your other posts your obvious intent to be inflammatory is met with extreme loathing.

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Let me say it this way Most of what the Army tells us is not true

And the anti-americanism of the Iraqi: You'll see! It is not because they get rid of their own leaders they will welcome the US forces. Just wait and see how the tribes will react on the Saddam speech. That will be crucial!

And a radio report i heard today of 'liberated' Uhm Qasr aren't that hopefull for a warm welcome of the US. The UK troops are ignored by the people of the Village while they booed at the US troops.

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Skynews "Embedded" reporter now on FOX with live on-scene reporting. Brits are supporting uprising with artillery and airsupport; Ba'ath elements are shelling crowds in street. Insertion of British Troops is being arranged ... should occur within a few hours. This is real.

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...Today's big scare story comes from American TV networks which claim, citing intelligence sources, that Iraqi troops could be authorised to use chemical weapons if other means of defending the city fail.

Yesterday's scare, an exclusive story in the Jerusalem Post - where Pentagon arch-hawk Richard Perle is a board member - told of the discovery of a suspected chemical weapons factory in southern Iraq. There is still no confirmation of the factory's purpose, and some experts have cast serious doubt on it.

With less than a week gone, predictions of a quick and clinical victory are looking less credible than they did in the first couple of days. Wars are rarely that easy, and it is difficult to know what the real (but private) expectations of General Franks and the other commanders were.
But they do seem to have been surprised by the levels of resistance in the south, where Saddam's cousin, "Chemical Ali", is in charge.
There is also disappointment that the Shia population of the south have not risen up against the Ba'athist regime. A Shia opposition official, interviewed on the radio last night, explained this very simply.

In 1991, he said, the Americans encouraged them to rebel against Saddam, but were then betrayed by the US. They are not going to be fooled a second time and will therefore keep their heads down until they are sure who is winning.

More generally, though there is ample evidence of popular hatred for Saddam and his regime, there are few signs of enthusiasm for the American and British invaders either. The following quote, sent in by a reader, may be relevant: "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators. Your wealth has been stripped of you by unjust men ... The people of Baghdad shall flourish under institutions which are in consonance with their sacred laws."

The words were uttered by General F S Maude, commander of British forces in Iraq ... and the year was 1917.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,921548,00.html

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perception wrote:

Frolic

I've read it too on BBC. But i see the news comes from the Army. I'll just wait 'till i get an honest source!

From your other posts your obvious intent to be inflammatory is met with extreme loathing.

1)I'm trying to give people some sense of reality! Some people think those Iraqi will welcome them with flowers and T. You have to be realistic. First of all. They remember the Second Gulf War! The road to Basra was called "The highway of death", fleeing Iraqi soldiers were massacred on that road. Always someone's father or someone's son.

Secondly, they live under an embargo for 12 years. They know the US is almost the only country backing for 100% that embargo.

Thirdly, The US jets bombed Iraq for 12 years on a weekly basis. Killing innocents.

Fourthly, They will see this as an attack on their country. Just like in the US people will rally behind their flag even they dont like the president. A normal reaction.

We'll talk in a few weeks!

2)Why should i trust the Army spokesman? When did they tell us the truth? I'm a factfinder, i read things and try to get a picture of what is happening on the field. Nothing i've heard of the military corresponds by what i hear from real (the non-embedded) journalists.

3)loathing? Yes, like every normal human being i'm disgusted by the pictures of war and the lives of innocents taken because some lunatic leaders want to play tough!

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Steve, that is strong stuff. Can the documentary maker confirm his sources?

I heard an interview on NPR this morning -- got into the program after it began and never got the interviewee's name. He was either Iraqi or had Iraqi connections, and he insists that, especially in a place like Basra which has been cut off and isolated, the civilians there have no idea what is going on about the war and that, when everything becomes clear, they will indeed support the downfall of Saddam and his regime. The interviewed man said also that seeming resistance from Basra citizens, such as groups of wandering riflemen, is merely the sort of local militia folk who are playing mini-warlord and want to get in on some action and do not represent the civilian population.

So perception I guess you are swallowing that apology.

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frolic wrote:

Let me say it this way Most of what the Army tells us is not true

Can you be more specific? Please cite for us examples of untruths we are being told and be sure to include your evidence that the citations are in fact untrue.

I look forward to being educated at your able hands. Very Happy

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Those who look for easy answers to "why do they hate us" have not studied the essential tenetsof the very small but influential group that subsrcribes to the radical Muslim fundamentalism of Osama Bin Laden which decrees, in its extreme form, that only Moslem belief is true and that other religions and peoples must either adhere to the true teachings of the Koran or "be put to the sword"

The extremists, as usual, are the problem. If they are removed, th rest of the moslem world will not be difficult to live with.

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trespassers will wrote:

frolic wrote:
Let me say it this way Most of what the Army tells us is not true

Can you be more specific? Please cite for us examples of untruths we are being told and be sure to include your evidence that the citations are in fact untrue.

I look forward to being educated at your able hands.

Where shall i start?

reports on Uhm Qasr, already taken a few hours after the attack=>until yesterday there was fierce resistance

Saddam, Azziz and some other high officials of the regime killed in the first wave of bombardements=>They all appeared on TV.

US POWs taken by the Iraqi=>denied 'till they were shown on TV

at least one US 'copter lost=>denied 'till it was shown on TV

Heave losses and vehicles destroyed=>denied 'till they were shown on TV

51st division of the regular army surrended=>That same devision clashed with UK soldiers today. There are 8000 soldiers in that division. And today the US army says it has taken 'bout 3000 POWs. How do you match that?

...

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Important news about the premises for this war:

The U.S. and British accusations that Baghdad was hiding chemical, biological or nuclear weapons programs were the reason most commonly cited by Washington for attacking Iraq. The credibility of those claims was undercut, however, by disclosures of forgery and misrepresentation underlying some of them, and by the failure of U.S. intelligence reports to lead U.N. inspectors to any important finds.

If U.S. units now quickly report uncovering concealed arms programs, critics may question the authenticity of the reports or suggest that intelligence had been kept from the U.N. inspectors -- and ask why.
If few such weapons are found, the war's very premise will come under question.

``I think that we probably have received several . . . bits of information over the last three or four days about potential WMD (weapons of mass destruction) locations,'' Franks said Monday.

British troops have found what was described as ``suspected'' Scud missiles and warheads in a chemical factory at Damaniyah, south of Basra, according to a British press pool report. Experts have been called in to determine what is in the warheads.

Skepticism about U.S.-British claims could be heard in last week's resignation of House of Commons leader Robin Cook from the British Cabinet to protest London's support of U.S. war plans.

``Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term, namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target,'' said Cook, who had access to high-level British information.

In the U.S. Congress, meanwhile, the disclosure that another U.S. allegation in the nuclear area was based on a forged document led Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D.-W.Va., to ask the FBI to investigate whether a ``larger deception campaign'' on Iraq was under way.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Weapons-Trail.html

(Dear Jay: Please be sure to check your mail for white powder. Keep up the good work. Best to you, T.)

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Frolic wrote

<loathing? Yes, like every normal human being i'm disgusted by the pictures of war and the lives of innocents taken because some lunatic leaders want to play tough!>

Do you also have loathing for the current evidence that Saddams Stalinist machine is now firing on the citizens of Basra and have cut off the water supply in Basra to blame it on the coalition forces.

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frolic wrote:

1)I'm trying to give people some sense of reality! Some people think those Iraqi will welcome them with flowers and T. You have to be realistic. First of all. They remember the Second Gulf War! The road to Basra was called "The highway of death", fleeing Iraqi soldiers were massacred on that road. Always someone's father or someone's son.

While destruction of equipment was heavy, there were relatively few corpses considering the material damage. Casualties did not number more than a couple of hundred, possibly less, by Red Cross count of bodies. It is unlikely the Iraqis, in their panic flight, carried off their dead.

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Secondly, they live under an embargo for 12 years. They know the US is almost the only country backing for 100% that embargo.

The US has lobbied powerfully for the sanctions. The sanctions however are aimed at The Regime, not the people. The misapplication by The Regime of proceeds from the Oil For Food program is the proximate cause of civilian inconvenience pertaining thereto.

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Thirdly, The US jets bombed Iraq for 12 years on a weekly basis. Killing innocents.

How many innocents does it take to man an anti-aircraft installation?

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Fourthly, They will see this as an attack on their country. Just like in the US people will rally behind their flag even they dont like the president. A normal reaction.

Emerging events appear to negate that supposition.

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We'll talk in a few weeks!

2)Why should i trust the Army spokesman? When did they tell us the truth? I'm a factfinder, i read things and try to get a picture of what is happening on the field. Nothing i've heard of the military corresponds by what i hear from real (the non-embedded) journalists.

Might it be the "Embedded" journalists' reportage merely fails to support your own agenda? Again I submit your personal bias is showing ... nothing wrong with that ... but I do not see your assessment of things to be particularly objective. I admit you have grounds to level the same charge at me.

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3)loathing? Yes, like every normal human being i'm disgusted by the pictures of war and the lives of innocents taken because some lunatic leaders want to play tough!

Its not a game and no one is playing. It is real, people are dying, and it is tragic, regretable, and inevitable. Utopia is not here yet, nor will this materially hasten its arrival. The imminent departure of a tyranical, murderous dictator contemptuous of law, human rights, and civilization is assured.

We will indeed see what comes. I expect that what will come will be more in line with US vindication than will be comfortable for some prominent states which have been opposed to the attack. Great embarrassment appears assured for France, Germany, and Russia.

An aside ... while the uprising news is welcome, I am sorely troubled by memory of what the rising of the Warsaw Ghetto failed to accomplish, and why. Still, Coalition Forces have far more to gain by the uprisings than did the Soviets in the Warsaw example.

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In less than ten minutes, there will be a briefing at the Pentagon of some real importance. There is a real problem at Basra. The coalition is having to decide whether to go in -- and whose lives should be lost, civilian or military -- in a situation which has become bloody and stalemated.

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Perc., where did you hear/read about the firings at Basra inhabitants? I have followed NPR, but only for the past hour or two, haven't heard about those news there yet.

As for the water supply I have heard it was cut off due to contamination. Red Cross is now consulting local cease fire so that they can get to the water source and cleanse it, which should happen within the next few hours. Humanitarian aid has been stocked in the ports, but cannot get through until the U.S. army and the coalition partners allow it to pass by. That's all major news I heard on NPR.

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perception wrote:

Frolic wrote

<loathing? Yes, like every normal human being i'm disgusted by the pictures of war and the lives of innocents taken because some lunatic leaders want to play tough!>

Do you also have loathing for the current evidence that Saddams Stalinist machine is now firing on the citizens of Basra and have cut off the water supply in Basra to blame it on the coalition forces.

That is the US version of the facts.

I saw some interviews on Al-Jazeera and the people said the pump broke down. The pump installations are located outside the city but the engineers are afraid of going there because the area is in the hands of the coalition force! That is the Arab version. To me Al-Jazeera is the most objective source in this war.

But if the coalition force had never attacked Iraq those people now would have water!

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frolic wrote:

But if the coalition force had never attacked Iraq those people now would have water!

Had Saddam complied with UNSCR 687 a dozen years ago, there would have been no attack.

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seems as thought the good citizens of southern Iraq are indeed rising up against the army of Saddam and in their memory of the ambush they got from Bush 41 they are also rising against the coalition forces. they don't seem to like invaders of any ilk.

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Fourthly, They will see this as an attack on their country. Just like in the US people will rally behind their flag even they dont like the president. A normal reaction.
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Emerging events appear to negate that supposition.

Remember that this is Barsa, the capital of Shia Muslim Arabs . They are holding out much longer than initial expected. Sunni Arabs, the people of Saddam, will react different. And like i said before! We'll talk in a few weeks. When the rebuilding begins and the Shia find out they are betrayed. Or do you belief that Bush will give Iraq to the Shia Arabs(the majority in Iraq). The same type of Arabs that rule Iran!

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Before i get accused, judged and hanged, Let me be clear on one thing: I'm anti-Saddam, anti-Stalin or anti-"any other dictator that ever ruled"

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