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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:00 pm
frolic wrote:
trespassers will wrote:
frolic wrote:
Let me say it this way Most of what the Army tells us is not true

Can you be more specific? Please cite for us examples of untruths we are being told and be sure to include your evidence that the citations are in fact untrue.

I look forward to being educated at your able hands. Very Happy


Where shall i start?

reports on Uhm Qasr, already taken a few hours after the attack=>until yesterday there was fierce resistance

Saddam, Azziz and some other high officials of the regime killed in the first wave of bombardements=>They all appeared on TV.

US POWs taken by the Iraqi=>denied 'till they were shown on TV

at least one US 'copter lost=>denied 'till it was shown on TV

Heave losses and vehicles destroyed=>denied 'till they were shown on TV

51st division of the regular army surrended=>That same devision clashed with UK soldiers today. There are 8000 soldiers in that division. And today the US army says it has taken 'bout 3000 POWs. How do you match that?

...

Your statements that these occurred are far from "evidence" of same. Everything you write MIGHT be true, but you surely can't expect me to take your word on it while at the same time telling me I can't trust what the Army tells me. Seriously. Where's your EVIDENCE. Citations? Links? Quotes? ???
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:02 pm
Truth in media? Just received this from a friend in Australia. c.i. *************

According to some, the American public remains unconvinced about the need for war. When you read reports like that below, is it any wonder?! The sort of clumsy attempt at propaganda thrust at us by Bush, Blair and Howard, and so eagerly regurgitated by big media, may have worked 100 years ago, but the people today have grown tired and cynical of an all-pervasive (and
increasingly obvious) political spin. Maybe it's time the pollies simply began to speak the truth. -- Murf
************

F.A.I.R., 18 March 2003

ACTION ALERT: In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views

Network newscasts, dominated by current and former U.S. officials, largely exclude Americans who are skeptical of or opposed to an invasion of Iraq, a new study by FAIR has found.

Looking at two weeks of coverage (1/30/03-2/12/03), FAIR examined the 393 on-camera sources who appeared in nightly news stories about Iraq on ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News and PBS's NewsHour with Jim Lehrer. The study began one week before and ended one week after
Secretary of State Colin Powell's February 5 presentation at the U.N., a time that saw particularly intense debate about the idea of a war against Iraq on the national and international level.

More than two-thirds (267 out of 393) of the guests featured were from the United States. Of the U.S. guests, a striking 75 percent (199) were either current or former government or military officials. Only one of the official U.S. sources -- Sen. Edward Kennedy (D.-Mass.) -- expressed skepticism or opposition to the war. Even this was couched in vague terms:
"Once we get in there how are we going to get out, what's the loss for American troops are going to be, how long we're going to be stationed there, what's the cost is going to be," said Kennedy on NBC Nightly News (2/5/03).

Similarly, when both U.S. and non-U.S. guests were included, 76 percent (297 of 393) were either current or retired officials. Such a predominance of official sources virtually assures that independent and grassroots perspectives will be underrepresented. Of all official sources, 75 percent (222 of 297) were associated with either the U.S. or with governments that support the Bush administration's position on Iraq; only four out of those 222, or 2 percent, of these sources were skeptics or opponents of war.

Twenty of the 297 official sources (7 percent) represented the government of Iraq, while a further 19 (6 percent) represented other governments -- mostly friendly to the U.S. -- who have expressed doubts or opposition to the U.S.'s war effort. (Another 34 sources, representing 11 percent of officials, were current or former U.N. employees. Although members of the U.N. inspection teams made statements that were both critical of Iraq's
cooperation and supportive of further inspections, because of their
official position of neutrality on the question of war they were not
counted as skeptics.) Of all official sources, 14 percent (43 of 297)
represented a position skeptical or opposed to the U.S. war policy.
(Sources were coded as skeptics/critics if either their statements or their affiliations put them in that category; for example, all French government officials were counted as skeptics, regardless of the content of their quote.)

The remaining 96 sources -- those without a current or former government connection -- had slightly more balanced views; 26 percent of these non-official sources took a skeptical or critical position on the war. Yet, at a time when 61 percent of respondents in a CBS poll (2/5-6/03) were saying that they felt the U.S. should "wait and give the United Nations and weapons inspectors more time," only sixteen of the 68 U.S. guests (24 percent) who were not officials represented such views.

Half of the non-official U.S. skeptics were "persons in the street"; five of them were not even identified by name. Only one U.S. source, Catherine Thomason of Physicians for Social Responsibility, represented an anti-war organization. Of all 393 sources, only three (less than 1 percent) were identified with organized protests or anti-war groups.

Overall, 68 sources, or 17 percent of the total on-camera sources,
represented skeptical or critical positions on the U.S.'s war policy --ranging from Baghdad officials to people who had concerns about the timing of the Bush administration's war plans. The percentage of skeptical sources ranged from 21 percent at PBS (22 of 106) to 14 percent at NBC (18 of 125). ABC (16 of 92) and CBS (12 of 70) each had 17 percent skeptics.


FAIR (Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting -- Media analysis, critiques and activism)
http://www.fair.org/
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:04 pm
Welcome back, Cicerone! Do we get to hear about the trip?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:04 pm
Just a note related to Basra ... the "General" commanding the 51st Division which supposedly surrendered his division a few days ago appears to have been not a general, but a somewhat more junior officer (though high in the divisional staff) seeking preferential treatment. The 51st appears to remain a cohesive and active fighting unit.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:11 pm
A very busy three hours (current as of about 30 minutes ago)


Quote:
COMBAT REPORTS - March 25 2003
1826 GMT - A journalist and a cameraman working for an Arab television station based in Lebanon and Dubai were captured in the Al Faw Peninsula and taken prisoner by Iraqi troops on March 25, sources report. The TV crew apparently illegally crossed the Shatt al-Arab waterway into Iraq, and were intercepted, arrested, beaten and taken off in trucks by Iraqi troops. The families were told by the Iraqis that the crew had been returned to the Americans.

1824 GMT - Troops with the British 7th Armoured Brigade outside Basra are targeting Iraqi Army mortars inside the city in support of what is believed to be an uprising against the Iraqi government. Coalition forces also have dropped two bombs on Baath Party headquarters in Basra, destroying the building.


1822 GMT - Air-raid sirens and explosions are currently being heard in Baghdad.


1820 GMT - Reports out of Iraq appear to confirm that elements of the U.S. 3-7 Cavalry crossed the Euphrates at Al Samawah, where they had been bogged down by Iraqi resistance for some time. Based on previous movement reports, Stratfor had indicated on its battlefield maps that the unit was close to Karbala. The maps will be updated to reflect the new data.


1812 GMT - Sources report that there is some kind of civil unrest occuring inside Basra. No further details are available at this time.


1754 GMT - CNN has reported that the 3rd Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment has broken through Iraqi lines at Al Samawah, crossed the Euphrates, and is now travelling north. It was reported earlier that the 3-7 Cavalry had crossed the Euphrates River near Karbala, some 125 miles further south. As latest reports of the location of the 3-7 Cavalry indicated that it was at the lead of the 3rd Mechanized Infantry Division's column near Karbala, something is clearly wrong with this report. Either there is a mistake about the location of the river crossing -- which likely took place between An Najaf and Karbala -- or there was a crossing near Al Samawah by a different unit.


1742 GMT - The 5th Regiment of the 1st U.S. Marine Division has advanced up Iraq's Highway 80 to just southeast of the central Iraqi town of Ad Diwaniyah, a journalist traveling with the regiment reported March 25. Sandstorms that intensified at midday slowed the Marines' drive considerably and were followed by thunderstorms, creating a mixture of sand and rain that now has muddied the roads.


1736 GMT - The U.S. 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit has been relieved by British forces from 3 Commando, Royal Marines, and is currently packing up in preparation to deploy further into Iraq.


1726 GMT - British military commanders estimate there are about 1,000 Fedayeen in Basra, as well as the remainder of the Iraqi Army's 51st Mechanized Infantry Division.


1703 GMT - A U.S. defense official confirmed March 25 that an F-16 fighter jet mistakenly fired upon a Partriot missile battery in Iraq earlier in the day. However, no casualties were reported, the official said.


1622 GMT - An Apache and a Blackhawk helicopter have been reported lost in a sandstorm, Al-Arabia TV reported March 25, citing a U.S. military source.


1534 GMT - The United States Army, 3rd battalion of the 7th cavalry brigade, have captured a key bridge in Karbala. U.S. forces were able to utilize the sandstorm in the area as a form of cover and captured a bridge across the Euprates River that they claim was wired with explosives.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:24 pm
!Ojo! !Achtung! !Cuidado! !Pericolo!

The information coming out of Iraq about the condition of the oil wells is coming from "contractors." Read Halliburton, Bechtel, etc.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:26 pm
The oil, however, continues to be pumped, and they're afraid the pipelines will start to rupture.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:32 pm
Uprising in Basra:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_764523.html
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:34 pm
Tartar, Thanks for the welcome back. Will report on my trip in the Travel Forum sometime this week. c.i.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:35 pm
Tres, I believe I have uncovered frolic's source of evidence.

frolic wrote:
perception wrote:
Frolic wrote

<loathing? Yes, like every normal human being i'm disgusted by the pictures of war and the lives of innocents taken because some lunatic leaders want to play tough!>

Do you also have loathing for the current evidence that Saddams Stalinist machine is now firing on the citizens of Basra and have cut off the water supply in Basra to blame it on the coalition forces.


That is the US version of the facts.

I saw some interviews on Al-Jazeera and the people said the pump broke down. The pump installations are located outside the city but the engineers are afraid of going there because the area is in the hands of the coalition force! That is the Arab version. To me Al-Jazeera is the most objective source in this war.
But if the coalition force had never attacked Iraq those people now would have water!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:42 pm
From Kuwait News Service:
Quote:

Iraqi forces fire on popular uprising by civilians in Basra

KUN0136 4 GEN 0167 KUWAIT /KUNA-QZY7
MIL-IRAQ-BASRA-UPRISING
Iraqi forces fire on popular uprising by civilians in Basra
March 25 (KUNA) --

Iraqi forces have turned their fire on a popular
uprising by civilians in southern Iraqi city of Basra, it was reported here on
Tuesday.
Mortars have been fired at citizens in Iraq's second city rebelling against
the Iraqi regime, the ITV News Channel said, quoting intelligence officers.
The channel quoted its reporter in Iraq as saying that intelligence from
the city suggested that local people had indicated they would like to welcome
the allied forces but were in fear of Saddam loyalists.
"Now it seems they have had the courage to stand up to Saddam Hussein and
his regime and they will be supported by British forces," the reporter added.
He said British forces were firing on the Iraqi mortar positions being used
to try and crush the rebellion.
Earlier today, British forces destroyed 20 Iraqi tanks as fighting
intensified around the city. (End)
eg.rk
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:45 pm
Turkey's foreign minister has confirmed that Ankara is planning to deploy troops in a 20-kilometre (12-mile) buffer zone inside northern Iraq if a "crisis situation" develops.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2885967.stm

Has there been any violence in Israel since the invasion started?

Roger -- Lots of sources are carrying the story about the Basra uprising, but it was first carried by Al Jazeera. I also believe they have been consistently on target and ahead of everyone else. The US media seem to carry the news later, reminding me of when I lived in a totalitarian country and the news had to be passed through the government filter to be "verified."

Iraqi exiles, oilwell experts, are refusing to work with the American contractors. Hmmm.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:46 pm
and at the same time BBC-5 reports that "while this would be welcome news to coalition forces, there is currently no supported evidence of any uprising"
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:48 pm
Source for that last tidbit was from a WSJ reporter reporting by sat phone to NPR -- a guy with lousy grammar and pronunciation: EYE-Wrack, and Ruh-MAY-luh.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:48 pm
Al-Jazeera reported there might me an uprise but still have no confirmation of it. I belief those reports are all based on the same source, the UK officer in Kuwait.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:49 pm
"A "popular civilian uprising" is reported to be taking place in the southern Iraqi city of Basra, according to British military intelligence officials.
A spokesman in Kuwait said there appeared to be some form of civilian revolt taking place, but as yet there is no independent confirmation of the report.
" as posted on the BBC-news-webside.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 01:50 pm
Lots of conflicting info coming in. I'm going to stop playing reporter now for a while and get a life!! Maybe we'll know more later?
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 02:02 pm
This is the latest i've heard:

The news was first reported by a Sky News correspondent. Later it was also reported by BBC and CNN, based on the same Sky News report. UK officials said they were not informed about an uprise but they said they had killed/arrested a few high officials of the Ba'ath Party this morning That could have triggered the uprise.

So i fear this story is living a life on its own.

The news is officially denied by Iraqi officials. But, Iraq's main Shia Muslim opposition group, the Tehran-based Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, says it can confirm a popular rebellion among the Shia population of Basra. Saddam Hussein's regime is dominated by members of the Sunni Muslim faith.

A lot of fog on the battleground!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 02:06 pm
Unrelated, but amusing tidbit picked up while prowling Arab Press for more info on Basra Uprising:

http://www.albawaba.com/news/printArticle.php3?sid=245183&lang=e
Quote:
http://www.albawaba.com/img/news/200303/245183_P2.gif Cheney daughter - human shield in Baghdad???

25-03-2003, 12:34


The London based Arabic daily Al Quds Al Arabi reported on Tuesday, March 25 that the American vice president, Dick Cheney, would soon head to the Jordanian capital, Amman.

The newspaper claimed that the visit would be an attempt by Cheney to convince his daughter, who was in the Jordanian capital, to back down her decision to go to Baghdad within a group of volunteers who want to form human shields against the US led attacks on Iraq.

Al Quds Al Arabi cited news reports it claimed circulating in Amman as saying that Cheney would arrive in the Jordanian capital soon on a special visit it described as having a "social mission." "News agencies cited sources as saying that Cheney will arrive in Amman next Friday. He will try to convince his daughter who is currently staying at a hotel in Amman not to go to Baghdad along with a group of volunteers who want to go to Iraq and form human shields against the Anglo American attacks," said the report.

Some sons of western officials have already volunteered as human shields in Iraq against the American invasion, including the son of the Canadian Foreign Minister, Bill Graham

Although not mentioned in the the Arabic newspaper, it is likely refers to Mary Cheney, the lesbian daughter of Vice President Dick Cheney. Mary, 34, is a lesbian, and she has not kept her homosexuality a secret -- either to her friends or to her employer, Coors Brewing Co., where she was the gay and lesbian corporate relations manager ...
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 02:17 pm
Frolic wrote

To me Al-Jazeera is the most objective source in this war.

This statement points to a basic deficiency in US policy ----we are winning the war and have always won the military portion of any conflict but-----the fact is this ---- WE ARE LOSING AND HAVE ALWAYS LOST THE PROPAGANDA WAR. Once this fact sinks in the obvious question surfaces----why do we always lose this side of any conflict?

Let's examine some questions and answers that I feel appropriate:

Q:Why do our enemies concentrate on this aspect of war and we do not?

Answer: Our enemies have accepted the fact that we possess superior military technology, equipment and training therefore they can either capitulate or use their brains to determine our weaknessess and exploit that weakness to defeat us.

Q: What is our most obvious cultural weakness.

Answer: Our insatiable quest for the truth from our leaders and news media.

Q: Why does this weakness exist?

Answer: The most cherished principle upon which this country was founded was freedom---- and most especially freedom of speech. Hell yes, everyone knows and agrees with this. Whoa---wait just a minute---But that's what this forum and other forums would have us believe. Because they say anyone who takes away or even inhibits this cherished freedom is THE ENEMY. Even in time of war and danger to our country, anyone who gives DISINFORMATION to our people and the press is THE ENEMY. ( Just recently the office of DISINFORMATION was abolished because the DOD was hounded by the press that this was a danger to our society and to our FREEDOM OF SPEECH). We don't dare utter one word that could be challenged as an attempt to hide the truth from the American people. During the recent press conferences conducted by CENTCOM, even when the Army officials answering questions from mostly hostile press members, give answers they often appear evasive because they are searching for just the right words that will not be dissected later by a hostile press and used against that briefer later on. Even when they are intentionally attacked with accusations of lies the briefers must appear calm, unprovoked and give an innocuous answer. On this forum the most vociferous critics of the government most frequently call anyone they disaggree with a liar and point a finger at that person as being THE ENEMY.

Q. How has this come about?

Answer: As with all things created by humans and the human mind there is always a weak point that can be exploited by an enemy. That weak point with Americans is our basic desire to be transparent in our thoughts and dealings with others. Many other cultures( I won't say all ) are taught from birth ( some people, even some Americans, seem to be born with this quality) never to reveal their true thoughts because those thoughts may be exploited by an unfriendly person later on when a relationship turns sour. I have come to the conclusion that the Arab culture has developed this furtive quality to the maximum extent which is now manifested by the recent happenings and dealings with Iraq and all the Arab nations. This is not limited to Arab countries----the Orientals have also developed deception to a high degree. (Thus the saying---the inscrutable oriental)

The American desire for transparency is manifested by our seeming simplistic view of the world. Other cultures have an absolute disdain for our childlike simplicity.

Q: What can we do about our weakness.

Answer: First we must recognize this weakness as a real problem and as a threat to our survival. It is similar to an alcoholic recognizing he/she has a problem before any treatment can be successful.

Q: After recognition of the problem what is the solution?

Answer: I am not certain of the complete solution but I do know this---the real enemies of the America have recognized our weakness and are far advanced in a plan to use this weakness to bring about our destruction. Furthermore there are many many well meaning Americans who are allowing themselves to be used by our real enemies who are constantly using very persuasive and sophisticated methods to convince the average citizen that our freedom of speech is being confiscated by a lying and greedy government.

Conclusion: American's love of other freedoms to enjoy our liberty have clouded our minds to an extent which has allowed our real enemies to focus on Freedom of speech as the best chance to subvert and cast doubt on our government. Their premise being that constant doubt in ourselves and the government will cause a decay from within and our way of life will implode.

In the current war in Iraq it has caused our military planners to underestimate the intelligence of the enemy to exploit our weakness
Since any department of information or DISINFORMATION would be attacked by the media as THE ENEMY of the American people, any and even this administration has been reluctant to establish any concentrated effort at countering adverse propaganda. We have even mistakenly allowed the Iraqi Television station and other Iraqi news stations to stay on the air because we are so naive to think that the people will discount the obvious lies and come running to us. Is this simplistic thinking or what?

I AM SAYING THAT WE MUST TAKE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OFF THE PEDESTAL AND PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE WITH OUR OTHER FREEDOMS.
THE ZEALOTS OF FREEDOM THE SPEECH ARE USING IT AGAINST US.
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