The US, UN & Iraq II

perc

Yes, that is part of the story too. And an important part. Sadaam was a bad guy, we are agreed. But how much will we see (via US media) and hear of that, and how little of the stuff that doesn't fit the tale? Why does the camera, as nimh and tartarin mention above, use a wide angle lense to show the empty space where there are no cheering happy people? It's not the right story. It doesn't fit. It doesn't fit in the way that suggesting Davy Crockett was a homo doesn't fit. Or, for an example from here, to suggest that Canadian hockey players are trained and encouraged to be pathological bullies doesn't fit.

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Perception -- You might want to set off quotes in such a way as to make clear that the person posting them didn't say them.

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Blatham wrote:

<Or, for an example from here, to suggest that Canadian hockey players are trained and encouraged to be pathological bullies doesn't fit.>

But I thought the profile of a hockey player demanded he be a pathological bully. BTW don't most of them come from Canada and Russia?

Blatham also wrote:
<Why does the camera, as nimh and tartarin mention above, use a wide angle lense to show the empty space where there are no cheering happy people>

Let me give you my "simplistic" evaluation of the reasons many of the observers did no erupt with spontaneous joy-----think what 30 years of murder, assassination and torture can do the psychie. When you add in the abandonment by the "geniuses" advising Bush 41(such as Brent Scowcroft) most people would be somewhat hesitant about showing anything more that mute witness.

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Some random thoughts and impressions, coming after watching, listening and reading reports of independent (not US) media:

1. It seems clear that the strength of the Saddam Hussein regime came from the secret police, not the Republican Guard. From fear and not from fire. Cutting the lines of command was key to the Coalition's success.
2. Fear so deeply rooted is hard to take away. Fear seems to be the prevailing feeling in Baghdad. The reports tell us about limited popular expressions of joy, limited popular expressions of impotent anger, limited popular expressions of grief and a whole lot of suspicious fear.
3. The key battle is the incoming one: to actually win the hearts and minds of the population. As of now, the Coalition victory is probably seen by the majority of them as the lesser evil. Less evil than Saddam's regime. Certainly less evil than war. The question is how to transform a "lesser evil" to a "good thing". That question may become a difficult riddle.
Anyway, the first thing is to secure proper distribution of humanitarian aid. Recent popular reaction in Umm Qasar and Basra tells us it's not working as well as the Coalition would like to.

Some random thoughts and impressions, coming after watching and listening reports of the US media:

1. I am appalled at their bias, yersterday and today. I had a whole different conception of them.

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Breaking News!

Wolf Blitzer must step aside from the distinction of having a moniker suitable to the war he covered.

Reporting for Fox News:

Dusty Grubbish, with the 23rd.
He is dusty, and very grubbish.

I don't understand why people are trying to avoid what they have seen, by talking about what they haven't...

Dearborn, Michigan is experiencing a fabbo parade of Iraqi ex-pats, waving Iraqi and US flags. A great sight!

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Tartarin

If you would please direct any criticism of me through a moderator I would appreciate it.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between trespasser and perc as far as logic, phraseology, self pronounced expertise, and general demeanor. It's weird but it almost like they were the same person.

Are you guys having a little fun ........ come on now fess up.

Let me write this once and please take me at my word:

I post here under a single name, "Tresspassers Will".

Any resemblence between my statements and anothers should merely be taken as a sign that the other person is also a pretty smart character. :wink:

It would be easy to catalog all of the various individuals in A2K who think or write alike on this or that topic, but in the end, that's really just another way to avoid actually dealing with what that person has written. It's just a back-handed way to devalue another's point of view, by leveling a claim against that person that he or she cannot disprove.

So please, let's not go there. Thanks.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between trespasser and perc as far as logic, phraseology, self pronounced expertise, and general demeanor. It's weird but it almost like they were the same person.

Are you guys having a little fun ........ come on now fess up.

I've noticed the similarities.

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snood wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between trespasser and perc as far as logic, phraseology, self pronounced expertise, and general demeanor. It's weird but it almost like they were the same person.

Are you guys having a little fun ........ come on now fess up.

I've noticed the similarities.

Are you sure you want to go down this road? I would really appreciate it if you would let it drop.

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Well, at least you're not sensitive about it. Cool

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snood wrote:

Well, at least you're not sensitive about it.

You're right, snood, I am sensitive about it. It would be nice if you could muster the courtesy to allow me that sensitivity, and leave it alone. It has nothing to do with the topic, being a commentary of a personal nature.

Please leave it alone and let's get back to the topic. Thanks.

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But gee whizz all Idid was notice sumthhin and ask ff I was theonly one that noticed it and you do sound an awful lot like him and you came across like an expert on far East religion like he did but you didn't recognise that what I wrote was not a direct quote but my interpretation and so was my personal opinion but at least Ididnt attack you and call you names and you are still not Bob Sal and neither is perc but gee whizz you two sound alike but my brother sounds a lot like Yosemite Sam but that's ok.

Whew what a mouthfull huh?

BTW, re-read your post and tell me if you think it sounds like you are threatning me jus a little Ok?

Thanks

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kids...... get back to politics - the politics of the UN, US and Iraq, not interpersonal politics. Thanks.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

But gee whizz all Idid was notice sumthhin and ask ff I was theonly one that noticed it and you do sound an awful lot like him and you came across like an expert on far East religion like he did but you didn't recognise that what I wrote was not a direct quote but my interpretation and so was my personal opinion but at least Ididnt attack you and call you names and you are still not Bob Sal and neither is perc but gee whizz you two sound alike but my brother sounds a lot like Yosemite Sam but that's ok.

Whew what a mouthfull huh?

BTW, re-read your post and tell me if you think it sounds like you are threatning me jus a little Ok?

Thanks

Okay, I guess that's fair.

Of course, then so is this:

Hey, anyone else notice that Gelisgesti is a moron? Anyone else notice that Gelisgesti likes kiddie porn? Anyone else notice that Gelisgesti would rather discuss other people in this discussion rather than the topic?

Or maybe neither is fair. Since you don't want to listen to my opinion, I'll let you decide. Rolling Eyes

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Please cease the personal insults NOW.

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David Sader is a Brit and an independent reporter who was being shepherded around in Baghdad by members of the Iraqi ministry of information. The minders are gone and the minister of Information(the one who was in deep denial until today) is gone.
His joy at being liberated with the Iraqi people was just now related by him and was a joy to listen to. I hope he will write a book about the truth of this war.

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From the BBC -
Qatar, CentCom :: Paul Adams :: 1538GMT

........"Also today something struck me about that moment with the flags - when an American flag briefly went up over the face of Saddam Hussein but soon came down.

I think someone may have got onto the radio and told those marines: take that flag down and put an Iraqi flag up. Because the real need now is to focus on the post-war settlement.

And finally, I don't want to sound like a party-pooper. But that was a small crowd celebrating in the square. Vociferous, yes, but not large. So officials are urging caution, there still might be pockets of resistance left to come."

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The war is nearly over WE HOPE but let's hope the youngest son doesn't self destruct & take out everyone else in FORT SADDAM as described Webpage Title

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perception wrote:

<'I hate to come across as the party pooper, but if you look at the scene on this square, you will see that it's not actually a large crowd gathered here - it's a very [limited] crowd'" >

It could be that the reticince of observers is caused by the fear they feel thinking that Saddam will come back and kill them.

That could be, yes.

But that makes comparisons like Rumsfeld now is making with the fall of the wall, for example, rather - out there. It was a symbolic moment, yes, I'll remember it as such. But 100 people gathered around a foreign army's tank while it takes a statue down, does not the 10,000s of Germans celebrating and hacking at the Berlin wall make.

Actually, it would be so much easier to see the good that is in every of these moments, if the US propaganda wasnt pouring all this hyperbolic bull over them. Rumsfeld was actually putting Saddam on one line with Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin! How's a European supposed to buy into that? Ceausescu, whom he mentioned as well - OK. He probably just added Hitler and Stalin because most Americans wouldnt know who Ceausescu was, but it just makes it ... this continuous impression that he takes us as being stupid is not doing his case any good, here.

Still - better ignore him and look back at the TV images of those Iraqis chopping at Hussein portraits, hacking at statues and cheering at the tanks rolling in ... their joy is real enough.

Though the news also got images of a man shouting at the journalist, showing him bloodied clothes lying on the street: "these are from a child, a child that was hit by a rocket. Americans did this. Look at this - America did this."

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LittleK wrote:

<I think someone may have got onto the radio and told those marines: take that flag down and put an Iraqi flag up. Because the real need now is to focus on the post-war settlement.>

It was just reported that the same marine who put the US flag over the head on the statue removed the US flag and installed the Iraqi flag. An Iraqi grabbed the US flag and started waving it around.

What is the reason for all the preoccupation with the flag---after all according to many folks on this forum it is just a meaningless symbol of a corrupt country. I have been castigated and flamed as being a redneck flag waver so why all the philosophical hand wringing over raising our worthless flag?

I have just heard several commentators say that this is the day freedom came to the Iraqi people ----I guess they just don't realize the Iraqi people had freedom and dignity "in their minds" and there was no reason to fear that they could at any time be jerked from their beds and never heard from again. These reporters just don't "get it" do they Kara?

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