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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:38 am
Frolic wrote:

Why the Iraqi? Who not the Pakistani? Why not the Palestinians? Why not the Zapatists in Mexico? Why not the Africans? WHY NOT? How can you reconcile this contradiction---not to me but to the oppresed world? Oppressed and killed with F16s like some palestinians today ?

Because Iraq is the key part of the middle eastern puzzle which can help provide the solution to the Palestinian/Israeli problem.
The remainder or your question is merely overstatement.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:42 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Perc, I didn't write it .... it is from the Tao Te Ching.... do you really think you have improved on it?

Do you understand the political setting of the Tao Te Ching? It was written at a time when most philosophers were losing their heads to ruthless warlords. The reason Lao Tsu was an exception, was because his work advocated things the ruling class liked. One of my favorite passages reads:

Quote:
The wise therefor rule by emptying minds and filling bellies
If nothing is done, all will be well.

(That's from memory, so correct me if I have a word or two wrong.)

Anyway, my point is that I do think the Tao can be improved upon, and I think our man Percy is headed in the right direction.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:44 am
Well said, blatham. but we have discussed all of this before, some 20 pages back or more. will be back if anything new appears.... until then, adieu all....
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:47 am
dag

Bye for now. Don't go far.

Here's a piece worth reading...

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13562
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:47 am
Tartarin wrote:
Not having TV, I'm hearing only the descriptions given on the radio (and reading news reports on the internet).


So I finally got to see those TV images ... the statue being torn down ... it was sure an impressive sight, but it also struck me with doubts again.

Judging on the posts here I was expecting jubilant masses, cheering their liberation. Instead, to quote (by heart) the BBC reporter on the spot: "I hate to come across as the party pooper, but if you look at the scene on this square, you will see that it's not actually a large crowd gathered here - it's a very [limited] crowd" ... that's what struck me on second sight, too.

The first sight was these men just jumping onto the statue, tearing at it, hacking at it, pushing each other off to jump on it - god knows what personal experiences will have instilled that fury - but the very next thing I noticed was how even in the close-up shot, you saw the empty space around the group, when the shot was more wide-angle, the immense empty square, though the towerblocks in the background must be housing enough people, and how in follow-up shots most men seemed to stand around quite subdued, discussing with each other or just waiting - there was just the one man with a flag .. This was not the fall of the Berlin wall. Like the reporter followed up: "there's a whole city around this sqaure and it seems the large majority of the people of bafdad are staying inside and waiting" to see what'll happen ...
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:53 am
nimh wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
Not having TV, I'm hearing only the descriptions given on the radio (and reading news reports on the internet).

So I finally got to see those TV images ... the statue being torn down ... it was sure an impressive sight, but it also struck me with doubts again.

Personally, I think I'm rational enough to recognize that some people will be jubilant and others will not. Iraqis, like people anywhere, will be individuals with their own reactions to what is happening. My bias (that people want to be free) leads me to believe that more will be happy to be rid of him than will not, but I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong by the facts, if that's the case.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:54 am
This is the last time I'll do the dyslexia thing, but - darn - and there was the entire Arab world (the population of the actual region you're talking about, perception) thinking that "the Palestinian/Israeli problem is the key part of the middle eastern puzzle, which can help provide the solution" to defusing the other tensions of the region.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:54 am
Nimh:

No-No-anything but a dyslexia!

To answer your flippant post I refer you to this great quote by Authur Schopenhauer

The truth goes through three stages:

1. First it is ridiculed

2. Second it is violently opposed

3. Third it is accepted as being self evident

History will determine which of our scenarios is most true---care to make a small wager? I truly hope history is not afforded the chance to judge my scenario.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:56 am
nimh and tartarin

We know this sort of image (crowds cheering, babies weeping with liberationist joy) will be the most desirable possible images to complement the tale as told in the US. No fade to severed heads. No dischordant sound track. The narrative is established.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:57 am
Nimh wrote:

This is the last time I'll do the dyslexia thing, but - darn - and there was the entire Arab world (the population of the actual region you're talking about, perception) thinking that "the Palestinian/Israeli problem is the key part of the middle eastern puzzle, which can help provide the solution" to defusing the other tensions of the region.

Just goes to show what faulty reasoning will do for you.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:57 am
Trespass, you put perc on a level equal to Lao Tzu .... to make that distinction you would need to be on a yet higher plane to determine the Tao could use improvement. How's your Chinese?

All these centuries .... go figure.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:57 am
Quote:
Saddam still the ultimate hero in Basra






Basra, April 9

"Give my life to Saddam!" Fatima shouts out from her hospital bed. Her leg has just been amputated, two days after a mortar fell on her house, killing five members of her family.

The 22-year-old learns that US forces pounded a site in Baghdad where Saddam Hussein was believed to have been hiding. She can't hold back the tears.

"We don't have anyone else like him. I know he's not dead."

At a nearby hospital bed, a mother stands vigil over her two-year-old son Hassem, who she says was hurt four days earlier by a tank at Abul Jasib on the outskirts of Basra, Iraq's second city.

"I don't think Saddam is dead. He knows very well what he's doing. We saw him yesterday on TV. This is just a lie by the Americans," she says.

British troops have been received cordially in Basra since they established control over the city Monday, the most frequent reaction being smiling "thank you"s from children.

But to many of the hundreds who were wounded in the two-week battle for the city, the feelings are bitterness, anger -- and for some a longing for Saddam Hussein to remain in charge.

Saddam Teaching Hospital, the city's largest medical center with 450 beds, has taken in hundreds for treatment since the war began March 20. The situation is similar at Basra's other hospitals.

Muayad Jumah, a surgeon, estimates more than 1,000 wounded were admitted at Saddam Teaching Hospital from Basra and other cities including Umm Qasr, Safwan and Nasiriyah.

The hospital only treated civilians and offered its services for free. Militia fighters were given first aid but then referred to a military hospital, Jumah says.

In one room, the family of Zahar Abdul Hassan, 23, is just waiting for him to die. The young farmer took the impact of a mortar in Safwan on the first day of fighting. Both of his feet have been amputated, his intestines are perforated and he suffers from trauma to the head.

"The Americans said they came here to liberate us," his father says angrily. "But we're the ones who are suffering. We're losing our children."

The ravages of war have also hit the hospital staff personally. Its director, Dr Akram Hassan, a well-known figure in Basra, is said to have lost 10 members of his family when a bomb demolished his house Saturday.

Hassan survived because he was at work -- waiting for more casualties to come in.

The hospital remains in mourning, and angry. "The United States created Saddam, gave him weapons, made him strong and then forgot about us," says Fadila, a nurse. "They've used him up now, so they're putting someone like him in his place."

In room 54, in the men's part of the hospital, talk of Saddam's possible death prompts furious debate about what direction Iraq should take.

"We need leaders who are against Saddam and can take his place, but for the time being no one has emerged," Jumah says.

Within moments, the discussion heats up. "He was a dictator. I hope he's dead," says a Basra resident being treated for splinters from a missile to the torso.

"Saddam is our leader forever!" shouts out a man from a nearby bed. "Shut up!" the first man replies. "We all know you're from (Saddam's) Baath Party."

Jumah, the doctor, intervenes to restore order. "In any case, what difference does it make whether Saddam is dead or alive? That won't free us from the current occupation."

At that thought, the room turns pensive.



While this again might be labelled as "party pooping" - just wanted to draw yr attention to the last line

Quote:
Jumah, the doctor, intervenes to restore order. "In any case, what difference does it make whether Saddam is dead or alive? That won't free us from the current occupation."
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 09:58 am
perception wrote:
Nimh:

No-No-anything but a dyslexia!


Oh god and I just did it again, too! Laughing

Last time, honest guv'.

And Tress ....

Did you read up the last few pages of this thread, at all? See my posts there? Thought I was just making up stories so that you would be thinking that ... <sighs> - ah, fugheddaboutit Edit: ah - the text of your post changed, I think (it says "Edited 1 time"). Took out the insulting bit. OK! Thats awright then.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:01 am
Blatham wrote:

No fade to severed heads. No dischordant sound track. The narrative is established.


We will probably "fade to the torture chambers of Saddam" and then attempt conceptualize the feelings of the hundreds of thousands of ghosts that inhabit those gruesome chambers.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:02 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Trespass, you put perc on a level equal to Lao Tzu .... to make that distinction you would need to be on a yet higher plane to determine the Tao could use improvement. How's your Chinese?

All these centuries .... go figure.

I'm sorry, but was there a refutation of my quote or my assessment of the times in which the Tao was written hidden in there somewhere?

The Tao is a beautiful piece of work with much wisdom.

It is not perfect.

Anything that is not perfect, can by definition be improved.

I consider the anti-individualist/anti-populist overtones throughout the Tao to be its weakness. Perception's edit removed those overtones from that one little passage. This I saw as an improvement. Your mileage may vary.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:03 am
"'I hate to come across as the party pooper, but if you look at the scene on this square, you will see that it's not actually a large crowd gathered here - it's a very [limited] crowd'"

This is precisely what the Iranian woman said whom I heard commenting on the CNN-MSNBC coverage.

Blatham -- Complexity and ambiguity are English and Latin words, not American. We allow their use by You People, but we have to be very careful here!!
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:09 am
Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between trespasser and perc as far as logic, phraseology, self pronounced expertise, and general demeanor. It's weird but it almost like they were the same person.

Are you guys having a little fun ........ come on now fess up.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:11 am
Tartarin wrote:

<'I hate to come across as the party pooper, but if you look at the scene on this square, you will see that it's not actually a large crowd gathered here - it's a very [limited] crowd'" >

It could be that the reticince of observers is caused by the fear they feel thinking that Saddam will come back and kill them.
That is real domination by using murder, assassination and torture to control an entire country for 30years
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:16 am
"I don't think the US will maintain control because the UN is ineffective. I think the UN is being promoted as ineffective (and thus made more so) because it suits the goals of this administration."

Blatham -- Yes.

Nimh: Listen to the Iranian woman (and the rest of the interesting 50 minute program) when they get the audio going later today at wamu.org/dr -- the first segment.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2003 10:17 am
Gelisgesti wrote:

Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between trespasser and perc as far as logic, phraseology, self pronounced expertise, and general demeanor. It's weird but it almost like they were the same person.

Your recognition of us as original thinkers is gratifying---surely a contrast to the parroting of left wing dogma demonstrated by the opposition.
0 Replies
 
 

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