The US, UN & Iraq II

VNN -- That's quite a piece. Have only skimmed it so far, but will read it thoroughly. I hope that, we're faced with a debacle, it's a quick one and we get out of there right fast before there are drawn out guerrilla attacks and retaliations. What a mess.

The thing about "liberal governance" is that it is flexible and quite the opposite of absolutist. It's at either end of the spectrum that one finds people who are sure there's only one way -- their way. It makes life very hard for liberals at a time when extremists have developed political muscle and convinced people that every problem has a simple (no matter whether deadly or cruel) solution. Killing people who kill people is one of those "simple solutions." Hitler was good at that stuff, too.

Tartarin wrote:

The thing about "liberal governance" is that it is flexible and quite the opposite of absolutist. It's at either end of the spectrum that one finds people who are sure there's only one way --

There may be another door of liberal governance that you don't want to open----it's paralysis by analysis. Liberals tend to overcomplicate and over analyze which leads to inaction due to paralysis----this also is not a friendly environment for resolve and conviction. I and other pragmatic folks believe paralysis and inaction are extremely dangerous to the overall future of this country.

pragmatic= I got these wimmin to drag my stuff around from cave to cave, why would i want to invent the wheel?

dys, Never made love in a car? LOL c.i.

See, I disagree very strongly, Perception. I'm always wary of permanent solutions and above all of "resolve and conviction." If you look at the process of developing the Constitution, of putting this country together, you'll see that it was full of contradictions and disagreements. The result quite deliberately left the door open for a-little-bit-of-this, a little-bit-of-that. Precisely what they wanted to build into the system was the yin and yang of an ongoing conversation. Those guys knew what "resolve and conviction" could lead to. Cromwell. The monarchy. And in our day, a country which felt itself to be saved, pulled out of the doldrums, by Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini. Those guys were efficient and active and had strong convictions. I think you'd agree we don't want to follow the same path..

It's often helpful for individuals to have their "resolves and convictions." But what saves us from real trouble is that the convictions differ, and we have to accomodate all of them. That's what liberals understand. God knows that's what moderate Republicans also understand. They also understand and are willing to accept the frustrations and challenges which come with embracing change. One of the great things which has occurred in the past thirty years or so has been the enormous change in the ethnic make-up of the US, bringing changes to the social culture. But it won't (and shouldn't) change the political process through which we accomodate each other. Nor should we allow the "just do it" and "let's roll" and "my might, right or wrong" attitude of the far right to hold sway. It's simply undemocratic... and deeply un-American.

Dys

Yeah and those natural palaces have a constant temp year 'round-- Certainly helps with the utility bill. Do the former occupants ever come 'round for rent?

pragmatism=republican style= why would i want to buy a tractor that takes fuel and maintainence when i got all these slaves?

concubines = slaves? c.i.

Tartarin wrote:

<And in our day, a country which felt itself to be saved, pulled out of the doldrums, by Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini. Those guys were efficient and active and had strong convictions. I think you'd agree we don't want to follow the same path.. >

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the leaders with strong resolve and conviction that defeated the above thugs. It is during times of great peril that define and test the resolve and convictions of all leaders and it is those who do not flinch and who remain steady in their resoleve who will triumph. The ones who do the most damage in times of peril are those who blindly and selfishly defend their views at all cost and who refuse to consider the greater need and good of the majority. People like Tom Daschle, for one, who is digging himself another hole.

Thank Tartarin for another excellent and historically accurate assessment on the way this democracy works best.
Thank you Perception for the nice compliment aimed at Churchill and Roosevelt (the right wing is going to miffed with you for saying nice-nice about FDR. Watch your back.)

You are not seriously equating GWBush and this adventure with the actions of these two individuals, are you?
===
I do agree with you on one thing, P. It's WAY too early to be talking about winning or losing this conflict.
Back on the disagreement side, ten more days seems to me to be a bit
optimistic, my crystal ball says another month and is not sure if the outcome is what any of us have predicted. What shall we have on our words when we have to eat them?
==

Tartarin wrote:

I'm always wary of permanent solutions and above all of "resolve and conviction."

It would seem that you are taking a somewhat narrow and overly critical view of two words that are probably the two most most important words in the English language when speaking of profound consequences. Ever think about the resolve and conviction of Lindbergh when he was preparing for his flight to Europe or of Shackleton when he traveled 600 miles in a rowboat (in freezing conditions) to save himself and his entire crew. Have you yourself never had the conviction to follow through on a project? Perhaps not.

Tartarin wrote:

I'm always wary of permanent solutions and above all of "resolve and conviction."

It would seem that you are taking a somewhat narrow and overly critical view of two words that are probably the two most most important words in the English language when speaking of profound consequences. Ever think about the resolve and conviction of Lindbergh when he was preparing for his flight to Europe or of Shackleton when he traveled 600 miles in a rowboat (in freezing conditions) to save himself and his entire crew. Have you yourself never had the conviction to follow through on a project? Perhaps not.

I just found a neat little program to help keep up on the news. It's put out by the BBC .... takes about a five minute download and installs in less than two. Drag it to any area of your desktop.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/services/ticker/html/default.stm

Gelis, Do you know if they have a download for windows xp? c.i.

Perception:

I used that signature because it does cause people to stop and think...perhaps it is not appropriate in all instances (like WWII for instance), but with the simplistic, unnuanced, and thoroughly untraveled president who has gotten us into this morass, I think it is appropriate. Particularly because of his excuses that he has sold to the American people (some of them)for going to war, that we are gradually discounting one by one.

I know there are many on this thread that were in the service and were in Vietnam. We were lied to then...what makes you so trustful of this president?

None listed .... let me see what I can find.

I will stick with Google News. http://news.google.com/ You can punch up about 100 papers worldwide and it's updated every couple of minutes.

I wrote:

You wrote (to Tartarin)


Question: why is it that you persist in asking your questions through a sneer?

Question: How are Tom Daschle's statements any different than the ones made by Trent Lott, Tom Delay and others during the Clinton Administration opposing the bombing campaign in Kosovo?

The ME/2000 version works fine w/XP, c.i. I've had it a long time.

I know that the US is the only state in the Western world where the death penalty still exists. In other Western countries, those "who love to kill" are locked up for life. I don't see why we shouldn't at least try to take that as an aim in international politics as well. Hence the War Crimes Tribunals. By sentencing dictators there instead of killing them we both get rid of them and keep the values of our own system intact.

I'm not saying that it's possible to just walk into Iraq and ask Hussein to please come along. But in terms of "proven methods for dealing with people who love to kill", I think the Milosevic route is what our future should be about. I'd rather see Hussein in jail than dead, at the end of this war - it's more humiliating and thus politically more effective, too, refusing him the status of martyr - although I understand, of course, that chances are rather slim on that.

Thanks, timber. Will give it a try. c.i.