The US, UN & Iraq II

Who would be interested in a separate forum on the events and people which led up to Iraq 2003? Or should we continue the discussion in this one? I'm cool, either way.

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Tartar

Go ahead and start a liberal support group that consists only of administration bashing-----why not start way back with the conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor.

It will be a good way to get rid of me. Good luck.

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tartarin, I would rather see the discussion continue in this thread. This has been an excellent forum, and I have learned a good deal from posters here. A branch of the same tree might take us out on a limb.

sumac, I read the Guardian online and find it useful as one of many sources. In the (UK) Independent, I have followed Robert Fisk for some years, now. He is well schooled on the MiddleEast and doesn't really have a "side." I think it is important to read lots of different media, and that's why ul's links have been so useful. I don't know where she finds all of this stuff, but I am impressed.

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I think an exploration of that fits in here, tartarin ... but I'd probably participate in a separate thread on the subject too, so I'm cool with it either way ... your call. I do lean toward Kara's wish to see it continue here, but again, your call.

OK ... lets see ... that's two for either way, and one distinctly for a separate thread by my count. Should we wait for a quorum?

timber

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Kara

Way back you said you "just had to do something to protest this war" and were going to DC for peace walk.

You could save a lot of money by just taking the wife and me to dinner(anywhere but a French restaurant). I promise I won't refute anything you say-----my wife might though------she thinks just like I do and she's British so maybe we should invite Steve also. You would still save money----DC is expensive.

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Ya know Kara, while I likely wouldn't attend a contemporary Peace Walk, still it is good to know many folks of reasonable, rational sort, you among them, will be there. I am deeply concerned by the prospect of violence arising from this weekend's demonstrations.

I hope I am proven wrong, but I am very worried about that. I sincerely and energetically hope calmer minds will prevail. The difference between a peaceful gathering and a rampaging mob can be but a few words and a matter of moments.

timber, who really should use spellcheck Embarrassed

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perception wrote:

Tartar

Go ahead and start a liberal support group that consists only of administration bashing-----why not start way back with the conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor.

It will be a good way to get rid of me. Good luck.

Damn - it must be catching; the 'persecution bug'.

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[/QUOTE]The soldiers who will liberate Iraq are "peace activists", only their actions will actually bring about peace. Yours are just self-congratulatory, masturbatory fluff. "Look at me! I'm against war!" Like anyone is for war. This is the beauty of the positions people on the political left so often take--they are positions that don't require thought, consideration of cost or consequence; they are positions that just "feel" right. Who cares if the facts don't add up to the conclusion they have reached? All that matters is that they can pat each other on the back for their shared enlightenment while sharing an absolute contempt and hatred for anyone who opposes their point of view.

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The reason I did not answer you in full, trespasserswill, is that an attack on one group of thinkers in this country, whom you have labeled "liberals," and whom you have stereotyped to suit your purposes -- adding inflammatory buzz-words such as just "feel" right; shared enlightenment; contempt and hatred for opposing views; people who hold positions that don't require thought, consideration of cost , or consequence -- is like trying to answer any comment involving bigotry. A bigot is a person who does not look beyond the label or the facial characteristics of any issue or person. A bigot is a person who does not take the time to look beyond the facade -- the superficial, the labels like "liberal" -- and try to understand the thinking of another person. Of course, it is easier not to investigate; it is easier to go along with the polarized thinking in this country; one is either a "liberal" or a "conservative." Labels save us from trying to figure out the truth for ourselves.

It would be unimaginable for me to call you a "conservative" and then lay on you all of the stereotypical appendages that accompany that label. If I did that, I would be insulting you in the worst way. I would be saying that I do not see you as a person, I see you as a thing.

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Snood

I do have a couple of questions---you said you were a soldier----are you on active duty now and if not how long since your separation.

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Kara wrote:

Labels save us from trying to figure out the truth for ourselves

Astute.

timber

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timber quote:

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An aside: It seems e-mail traffic from In Theater troops to the folks back home are still of relatively high volume, something which would indicate no near-term attack.

I sure you already know it but the little nations of the Security Council have asked for 45 days. Of course - Ari says that's a non starter - but, they will all ignore Ari and use this as a starting point.

Anyway, it looks like it will be some time still - Pushed out to at least April 1, now that's a good day to start - hmmmmmmmm!

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Quote:

You could save a lot of money by just taking the wife and me to dinner(anywhere but a French restaurant). I promise I won't refute anything you say-----my wife might though------she thinks just like I do and she's British so maybe we should invite Steve also. You would still save money----DC is expensive.

The first time, back several pages, when you chose to make a patronizing comment about my education and my naivete, I decided not to respond. My response would not have been pretty and does not belong on a civil thread.
I'm sure you meant the comment above to be humorous. Full marks from me, for that. But the laugh was intended to be at my expense. (Only the wittiest and wisest among us tell jokes at their own expense.) Why on earth would I want to go to dinner with a puppet? I'll admit there is some enticement there...meeting Steve, who would not nod woodenly when I extemporized.

Dinner in DC will be cheap for me. I will take a sandwich along on the bus, and some coffee.

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I hope I am proven wrong, but I am very worried about that. I sincerely and energetically hope calmer minds will prevail. The difference between a peaceful gathering and a rampaging mob can be but a few words and a matter of moments.

timber, this has been much on my mind. I have a great fear of angry hordes, and I know the possibilities of a large crowd. I am keeping in my mind the picture of MLK walking across that bridge, calmly, linked hands in the first row of walkers, quietly, and with determination. I'm sure he was afraid, as were others in the front row as they marched. They had every reason to fear violence, but they stayed calm and determined, focused on their goal of non-violent demonstration. I have a large book entitled FREEDOM, which tells the story of the civil rights movement in pictures. All I have to do is think of how little hope they had of success, or of freedom, and how they kept on.

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I will be thinking of you Kara - and I don't worry about you and the other marchers as I fear for you against the tightly strung police who have proven violent in the past and those from the other side who don't wish a peaceful march. Take care and enjoy the moment!!!! Smile

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I would MUCH rather continue the conversation within this thread and am glad you feel the same way, Kara and Timber. But fair warning: I'm going to continue to be react or ignore those with Limbaugh-itis, a disease which causes the sufferer to inflict suffering on others by ridiculing them, misquoting them, and setting them up for an either/or argument. We are burdened here with the latest form of political correctness in which might makes right, arm-twisting is cute, and intellectual dishonesty is used as a weapon against intellectuals.

Hang in there, Kara! I'm glad you're going to be in DC. A friend who marched last weekend in Washington reported that the streets are strung with videocams which are turned on when there are demonstrators ... and then turned off. Wonder if that's true?

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Do take care, Kara, and know my thoughts and best wishes will be with you. That I may disagree with a segment of your politics in no way diminishes my respect and regard for you as a person. I am comfortable that you have come to your position honestly and honorably, and I applaud your willingness to commit more than words to your cause.

You, and such as you, have my admiration for that. There will be many in the throng who have given the issue far less thought, examination, and reasoning. That is what troubles me most.

timber

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"A group without a leader is a mob. A mob with a leader is a government." Harry Belefonte (Carnegie Hall performance)

Not appropriate, but thought I would toss it in anyway.

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I like it roger, I could add "A mob with a leader is a government or a congregation." But Harry did it justice! Thanks!

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I'm doing a rethink of your dinner invitation, perception. My second-thought response is

The US, UN & Iraq II

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