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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 10:55 am
The War in Iraq Turns Ugly. That's What Wars Do.

Article in the NY Times. The autor is James Webb, secretary of the Navy in the Reagan administration, was a Marine platoon and company commander in Vietnam. He is an author and filmmaker.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 10:56 am
James -- That's the first time I've seen the GRU website -- very good addition. Thanks. And I didn't realize Perle hadn't completely stepped away. Last night I posted an article on nine of the remaining members with close ties to the defense industry. It stinks. If I had to single out one issue I think this country has to face -- or go under -- I'd say it's Ike's Pet Peeve.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:00 am
Double Speak
timberlandko wrote:
A 4 to 6 day suspension of forward-directed offensive ground action has been announced.

We can't be rude at them anymore.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:00 am
James,

You write

Quote:
The outcome of this conflict is still not in doubt if the U.S. wants to win this conflict...


thats an increasingly big IF
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:04 am
forward-directed offensive ground action, as easy to understand and redirect as:

self inflected nocturnal emission casulty

:wink:
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:04 am
There's no doubt that the coalition will win the war. It's winning the peace that's going to be the problem.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:08 am
Wilso, amen. c.i.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:14 am
I think they call it 'gun point democracy'
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:20 am
Tartarin, you are welcome. It was given to me by someone else on A2K unfortunately I was unable to recall them and give them proper credit, Timber was that you?

Steve, regarding my statement:

"The outcome of this conflict is still not in doubt if the U.S. wants to win this conflict."

You are absolutley right this is a mighty big if. This deserves an entirely different discussion and America's "lack of stomach" for war is what Saddam is counting on for his "Victory".

Wilso, Has brought up another point for discussion which involves not only the future but the methods used to reach a Victory in the military conflict. I'am afraid the two are intimately related and I am not sure how much the present American administraion has thought about this relationship.

JM
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:22 am
JM, Not much. They have also miscalculated how long this war was going to last. c.i.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:27 am
JM

I think it was me who first posted the GRU site. No doubt that will invalidate it completely in the eyes of some!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:32 am
I'm sitting here this morning, avoiding doing what I'm supposed to be doing because I did just enough yesterday to stave off guilt, and I'm thinking about those guys sitting "paused" in the desert.

Ever been in a sandstorm? Neither have I. But I've been in a dust storm and that's bad enough -- that's really bad, in case you haven't had the privilege. So what I'm thinking is this: We have a government which sent those "paused" guys to sit there and maybe later get killed because we are going to lay democracy on the Iraqis.

Okay. Remember when Bush (now "the government") laid his form of democracy on US? Remember the Florida scene? The Supreme Court? Will the democracy he lays on the Iraqis be MORE democratic (according to Bush) or LESS democratic than he has laid on his fellow countrymen?

Are any of the soldiers -- bored and frightened and bored, trying to get the sand out of uncomfortable parts of their anatomy, eating boring food, rereading boring print -- are any of them wondering about this?

Are they all rah-rah automatons who believe the party line, or are any of them suffering -- in addition to the normal expectations of war -- the doubts, not to mention the discomforts and the anguish about the political and moral realities which we so freely yammer on about in this forum while sipping our coffees and teas?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:32 am
Thank you, Steve, ever valid and interesting!
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:38 am
Tartarin, BTW, by definition - those soldiers don't live in a democratic world.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:39 am
Steve, you give us so many sites and incites - thanks! Smile
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 11:54 am
2nd
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 12:36 pm
http://home.nyc.rr.com/jadedem/gw1.html



A tale of curious George.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 12:47 pm
War is a terrible thing, but a human activity that goes back to the origins of society. The first warriors disputed territory and resources with clubs and thrown stones. Those remote ancestors didn't love war, but they recognized that their personal survival depended upon victory when challenged. Clubs and thrown stones killed as effectively as modern munitions, and the grief was just as great.

Ancient history is replete with genocide and massacres, enslavement and torture. Defeat in those days often meant the extinction of cities, nations, and peoples. There were no rules of warfare, nothing to mitigate the suffering of war beyond the capacity of individual soldiers for mercy. Over time there grew up a number of concepts that to some extent to limit the more extreme practices of war. However, the notion that there should be a set of international laws governing how war is waged, and a code of conduct for soldiers engaged in the practice of war came rather late in our history.

Grotius, in the early 17th century is often cited as the father of international laws governing war and peace. That was a time when Europe was embroiled in the religious wars of the Reformation. Massacres and torture of prisoners were not uncommon. Many of the ancient conventions were flouted as armed groups sought to impose its will on their declared enemies. Grotius, and his successors, made progress and by the mid-18th century armies were much more professional, and they generally recognized the utility of mitigating the evil effects of war by adhering to international laws of war and peace. The American War for Independence was largely conducted within the existing rules of that time. In the Southern Theater of Operations, the American Revolution was much more a civil war fought between Loyalist and Patriotic factions, and there virtually neither side observed many rules. It was very brutal, as civil wars usually are.

The first world war was the Napoleonic Wars, which grew out of the French Revolution and continued until Nappy retired to St. Helena. There were very strict and formalized rules of conduct that soldiers were expected to observe. However, there were two notable exceptions that occurred. First in Spain, the Spanish and English adopted Guerrilla tactics as the best means of resisting the "professional" French military. The French reacted, in accordance with the practices of the times, by shooting any combatant who was out of uniform in front of the nearest wall. Goya's famous painting of such an execution is an early piece of propaganda. The second notable use of irregular war was found in Russia. Napoleon was outraged that irregular forces (many of whom were criminals released from prison to do the deed) on the orders of Alexander's generals burned Moscow. Those responsible for the burning of Moscow were hung without trial wherever they were apprehended. Though irregular forces, peasants armed with pitchforks in some cases, harried the French retreat, the loss of the Grande Armee was more attributable to the cold, poor logistics, and the regular Russian military. At Vienna, a new order for Europe was established and the use of irregular warfare was condemned.

We need to recognize that the rules of war as they existed in from the mid-18th through the end of the 19th century, were almost regarded as reciprocal and hence only seldom applied to the prosecution of war against non-European foes. AmerInds, Africans, and Asians were expected to violate the laws of war, and that set armies of colonization somewhat free to ignore the rules that bound them when engaging other European-style armies. If the enemy tortured and killed prisoners, then many argued that freed the European-style army to reciprocate in perfidy and cruelty. Many of those acts today are regarded with shame.

At the end of the 19th century great efforts were being made to adopt international laws for war and peace to mitigate the horrors of war. The rules/laws adopted in 1899 formed the basis for what we live with today. Those rules/laws were further elaborated in the Hague Convention of 1907. The following link will take the reader to that portion of the Hague Convention that generally governs civilized armies of today:

Hague Convention (IV) Linkage

I hope that many of you will take the time to read the rules of war, because the strategy currently adopted by Iraq, and radical Islamic terrorists certainly seem to have repudiated those laws. This raises the question of how should an army bound to those laws, rules and conventions, best counter the challenge. We will not reply in kind, but will continue to observe the constraints intended to mitigate the worst evils of war.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 01:20 pm
An additional reading of theIIIrd Geneva Convention
and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

could be done afterwards as well.


While Huig de Groot (Grotius) is known as "The Father of International Law", the "Liber Code" is said to be the first attempt to codify the laws of war.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2003 01:20 pm
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5LKHH3MEZNX3OCRBAE0CFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=2471696

Quote:
Baghdad Commander Fired Over Missile Errors -UK
Sat March 29, 2003 02:03 PM ET
LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said on Saturday the commander of air defense forces in Baghdad had been replaced after Iraqi surface-to-air missiles, aimed at Western warplanes, had missed and fallen back on the Iraqi capital. ...



Hmmmmm.....?
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