The US, UN & Iraq II

Acquiunk, Welcome!

In regards to your statement:

" But it is obvious that the promised quick war, and joyful reception by the liberated Iraqi's will not occur. "

I seriously do not remember any official, political or military, stating a specific time line for the completion of "Operation Iraqi Freedom". If anything the American people were continually cautioned against thinking this might be a cakewalk.

Too many people transposed the first Gulf war onto this conflict that is a mistake for two reasons, which now, are readily apparent. Perhaps some of the talking heads were guilty of implying or even specifically stating a short time of completion. But it is our individual responsibility to take given information and make our own decisions. Main difference between the two conflicts:

1. Iraq is much larger than Kuwait.
2. The Iraqi people are fighting in defense of their country. But more realistically, those who have the power to resist are fighting for their lives. Once this conflict ends those in the Baath party will at best be severely dealt with. As the end nears we might very well see those officials scrambling to get into Coalition custody to avoid time honored Arab retribution.

I too disagree with a couple of coalition tactics but not overall strategy but this is because my hindsight is also 20/20.

As regards "...joyful reception by the liberated Iraqi's ..." not occuring, I must disagree somewhat. Given the southern Iraqi citizen's past experience in the last war and directly due to Saddam’s "zero tolerance" for citizen dissent the jury is still out on this. Add to the mix that all Iraqi citizens still have at least another month's ration of food. Once stomachs become empty allegiances will soon be on the table.

Respectfully,

JM

acq, It's still too early to determine whether the Iraqi's will welcome the coalition forces. Many Iraqi's are still in fear of Saddam. c.i.

And in fear of the Bushes also!

excerpt from http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=153524#153524:

Items from the 8 o'clock news here:

Mass demonstration in Amman, Jordan, chants are: "Saddam, Bush and Blair are criminals"

JamesMorrison, you might take a look at Political Guidelines and Logical Fallacies. The link to the latter is just about at the bottom of the guidelines.

Allegedly, arms coming in from Syria now.

15,000 Indonesians signup to fight Americans in Iraq.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6183720%5E25777,00.html

I deserve some credit, please. I predicted Syria would be drawn into this, didden I! Others predict (and I don't dismiss the probability) that Bush wants 'em in there, wants Syria.

NPR seems to have made a policy decision, if what I heard just now isn't just a freak: statements from British and American military in Iraq are now treated as allegations. "...British officers allege that..." I guess their credibility has gone down a bit? Or are the media getting smarter?

roger, thanks for the link to logic. I didn't know our Forum was so well equipped. Takes me back to Logic I, and I guess it's like riding a bicycle; you never really forget how to do it.

I find it upsetting in this forum when posters accuse others of glee over the appearance of ineptitude or error in the prosecution of this war. How utterly shallow would one have to be to find him- or herself in the possession of such sick delight.

Also, I find it incredible that words such as these are still posted here: Wait until the regime is brought down and the truth about Saddam's reign is known. Then you will see why the US is doing this. My God, is there really anyone on this forum who does not know how evil Saddam is and how oppressive and sadistic in pursuit of his aims? They would be living in cloud-cuckoo land, if they are walking around unknowing of those known facts. The most fervent anti-war protester knows what Saddam is. That has nothing to do with what my country is doing, and why, and how.

Most people have conveniently forgotten the air war which preceeded the 100hr ground war in Gulf war I. The air war lasted 6 weeks---I repeat 6 weeks.

This campaign is in the 8th day with phenomenal success and light casualties----as of yesterday 28 dead and 40 wounded.

The 4th Infantry Division( you know the one that was supposed to come down from Turkey) has begun arriving from Fort Hood Tx.
Their equipement will start off loading on Sunday. Thanks to the duplicitous actions of the Turks , the force in "The plan" was one division short at the beginning of this war but yet they have made phenominal progress despite two days of record sand storms and pest like attacks from thugs in civilian clothes.

The 4th ID is the only unit actually ordered to deploy to my knowledge.

roger,

Thank You,

JM

just a passing curiosity but i have noticed the new language of war being created- in viet nam we had "fire fights" and now i hear we have "instabilities"

Well stated Kara.

James<orrison, rightly or wrongly the Bush administration gave the impression that this would be a quick and relatively painless war. The only quote I can come up with immediately is from a BBC article in Feburary. The quote is from Secretary Rumsfeld while on his trip to Europe in early Feburary.

BBG News 2/7/03
Rumsfeld foresees swift Iraq war

Quick campaign
Mr Rumsfeld is in Europe to try to gain backing for possible military action against Iraq.
"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months," he said, speaking at the American air base at Aviano, in northern Italy.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:2MAyZX2skp0C:news.bbc.co.uk/
1/hi/world/middle_east/2738089.stm+rumsfeld+predicts+quick+war&hl
=en&ie=UTF-8

As for the Iraqi reception, I agree the jury is still out, but the resistance put up by some of the irregular forces suggests that he does have the support of at least some of the population. Also, it should be kept in mind that whatever they may think of Saddam, the Iraqi's may to appreciate a foreign power invading to remove him. As or own Declaration of Independence states people are reluctant to change the form of government they are accustom to while the burdens are bearable.

What the media in the mid-east are saying:

"...we must upgrade our resistance to the war to more than chants..."

'Look, I really don't have much time for Tony Blair, but if the Iraqis were going to invade Wales, then I would be firmly behind him.' I think this is an accurate analogy."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,924772,00.html

Other updates from the Guardian:

A "pooled" (and apparently censored) report by a Reuters correspondent this morning describes an attack by US marines on a bus near Nassirya in which 20 Iraqis were killed. The dead were wearing some civilian clothing and were said to be carrying papers that identified them as members of the Republican Guard - though the report says that only two guns were found on the bus.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,924728,00.html

"We're absolutely sick and tired of putting things out and finding they're not true. The misinformation in this war is far and away worse than any conflict I've covered, including the first Gulf war and Kosovo," said a senior BBC news source.
"On Saturday we were told they'd taken Basra and Nassiriya and then subsequently found out neither were true. We're getting more truth out of Baghdad than the Pentagon at the moment. Not because Baghdad is putting out pure and morally correct information but because they're less savvy about it, I think.
"I don't know whether they [the Pentagon] are putting out flyers in the hope that we'll run them first and ask questions later or whether they genuinely don't know what's going on - I rather suspect the latter."
Earlier this week the BBC's director of news, Richard Sambrook, admitted it was proving difficult for journalists in Iraq to distinguish truth from false reports, and that the pressures facing reporters on 24-hour news channels had led to premature or inaccurate stories
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,924172,00.html

According to a report to be published today by the US watchdog Center for Public Integrity, at least 10 out of 30 members of the Pentagon committee are executives or lobbyists with companies that have tens of billions of dollars' worth of contracts with the US defence department and other government agencies.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,924728,00.html

Earlier we were discussing the Bush popularity poll results -- which we seem to agree should be taken with a grain or more of salt. But to what extent to you think the financial markets reflect comfort or discomfort with the administration?

Have you seen our political links, Kara. It's a virtual reference library. Anyone with a useful link can post here, by the way.

Terrific report on NPR news this afternoon from Eric Westerfeld -- in battle, under fire, with panic and a sense of humor.

Also, some soldiers are beginning to complain that their training does not cover what is actually taking place. I suspect we'll be hearing more about that -- during the ongoing invasion and afterwards.

When it comes to war, The Media "Just doesn't get it". Regardless the pontifications of pundits and "Out-of-the-loop" retired military folk, the wide-eyed exuberance of awed reporters, or the depictions of human tragedy, the attack on Iraq has has been a phenomenal military success and will shape the picture of war for the next generation. Military textbooks will be rewritten. I would like to offer for consideration by those who hold the attack to be less than successful, or troublingly more difficult than had been anticipated, the following:

Tarawa Landing

Tarawa, the first major US amphibious assault of the Pacific War, is among the campaigns of The United States Marine Corps. The 1943 battle was carried out from Nov. 17th to Nov. 26th, opening with Naval Air and Gunnery Bombardment of unprecedented ferocity and ending with well over 99% of the entrenched Japanese Garrison killed, one of the most decisive, albeit costly, victories in military history. The Marines, specifically the 2nd Marine Division, went ashore on November 20th. Casualties suffered by the 2nd Marine Division over those 10 days amounted to 1,027 dead, 88 missing and 2,292 wounded. Nearly a half the total casualties were incurred within the first 48 hours following the landing. The 2nd Marine Division is on the outskirts of Baghdad today, almost 60 years later. The 2nd Marine Division has not yet worked up a sweat. This time, they have more help. The issue is in no doubt.