Mueller: No further indictments

@georgeob1,

Quote:

However the fact is that the rather exhaustive Mueller investigation did not establish probable cause for either criminal collusion/coordination with Russians, or for obstruction of justice.

By which you mean sufficient evidence to proceed to a charge and prosecution. As for obstruction, Barr at least acknowledged that Trump is not exonerated. You did get that, didn't you?

Quote:

In short, what I suspect you may mean by "total exonerati0n, is an outcome that was never a possibility in this investigation, and to suggest otherwise is simply contrary to the facts.

"Total exoneration" is the exact phrase used by Trump, by Trump Jr. and is the reigning terminology used in every instance I've seen, as I said. Do you know of any other contrary instances?

Quote:

President Donald Trump began his victory lap over special counsel Robert Mueller’s findings on Sunday with a tweet that read, simply: “No Collusion, No Obstruction, Complete and Total EXONERATION. KEEP AMERICA GREAT!”

Quote:

On Fox Business Network, Lou Dobbs called Monday “a great day, a grand day in America,” all while, featuring a graphic that read, “Vindicated & Exonerated.” The graphic was consistent with the president’s description of the report’s findings being “a complete and total exoneration.”

etc etc etc

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@Region Philbis,

Albert Peterson wrote:

Here is some truth :
Mueller has farmed out federal indictments to:

1) the SDNY, in Manhattan,
2) the EDNY, in Brooklyn,
3) the EDVA in Virginia,
4) the U.S. Attorney's office in LA,
5) the U.S. Attorney's office in DC,
6) the DOJ National Security Division,
7) the DOJ Criminal Division.

Those who are familiar with Mueller's investigation understand that "no more indictments from Mueller" doesn't mean "no more indictments."

It means every single one of Mueller's existing indictments resides in a "presidential pardon proof" prosecutorial district.

Leftists sure are delusional.

Since when does the President lack the power to pardon the target of a federal prosecution?

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@blatham,

When, for instance, a grand jury declines to charge someone, that person is then considered innocent until and unless proven guilty.

The House, Senate, and Special Counsel reports all concluded that the president did not conspire with the Russians to cheat on the election, and declined to charge the president with any form of obstruction. In our system of jurisprudence, a person not charged is treated as innocent, not as under a permanent cloud of suspicion that he has to affirmatively disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Why does it sound to me like you wish the the Mueller investigation had accused the president of a crime?

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

Why does it sound to me like you wish the the Mueller investigation had accused the president of a crime?

My preference would have been for Mueller to push Trump into an Amazonian tributary seething with piranha. However, it was not to be.

As regards the rest of your post, you haven't been reading carefully.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

the rather exhaustive Mueller investigation did not establish probable cause for either criminal collusion/coordination with Russians, or for obstruction of justice. Under our legal system (and that of Canada) that is, most certainly, exoneration in the legal sense.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Removal of legal jeopardy is not exoneration.....

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@DrewDad,

If you say so.
What then is the right term for exoneration in a criminal investigation?
(I believe the question answers itself - exoneration is exoneration - however perhaps you have another term in mind)

Stated differently, how do you describe the completion of such an investigation and the determination that no probable cause of the alleged crime exists?

In cases in which probable cause is established and formal charges and a trial ensue, when the defendant is found 'not guilty' he is deemed to be "innocent" of the alleged crimes. Given that, what term do you use when, after a long and exhaustive investigation, no probable cause is found; no charges are preferred; and the investigation is closed without subsequent action?

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

You really don't have a very good grasp of the legal system.

"not guilty" is not the same as "innocent"

"insufficient evidence" is not the same as "not guilty" and it definitely isn't the same as "innocent"

I drove over the speed limit on my way to work today. I am not innocent of the traffic violation. I just didn't get caught.

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@DrewDad,

It is you who doesn't understand. In our legal system one is presumed innocent of a crime if he/she is not legally convicted of it. In legal terms "not Guilty" is indeed exactly the same as "Innocent".

Observers such as yourself may still believe there is some guilt on the part of those accused (or merely investigated). However, that is simply a private judgment you are entitled to make, and has no legal standing whatever.

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@georgeob1,

You keep telling yourself that, big boy.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

@Baldimo,
Sad that you can't deal with criticism.

Brennan wasn't spreading "criticism", he was selling a coup.

Quote:

Authoritarianism is simultaneously pathetic and terrifying.

Yes it is, to think Obama tried to fix the election in Hillary's favor by pushing a fake narritiave and using the former head of the CIA to do it. We used to do these things to other countries, now our govt is doing it here to our own elections.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

You keep telling yourself that, big boy.

George is telling himself the truth, which is better than telling himself a lie. That seems to be your problem, lying to yourself. Do not equate it with the truth every thinking person with just a little knowledge of our legal system sees.

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From Barr's letter:

Quote:

“While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it does not exonerate him.”

Not much sense arguing about this stuff. Trump will lie - "full and total exoneration". And as I've quoted above, the same lie is coming from Fox and others who wish to keep Trump in power.

In any case, there are a lot of other investigations on-going. I'm content for them to play out.

But in the meantime, we simply need to appreciate that Trump will continue the big lie. And his media allies, particularly Fox and Limbaugh, will spread and multiply that lie. And, quite possibly, Barr, who was appointed after writing opinions agreeable to Trump's legal position, may try to conceal and/or spin further releases of the report's contents. If it looks like that's happening, then citizen pressure will have to ramp up in support of a full (as legitimately possible) public release and in support of continuing investigations.

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@blatham,

Quote:

But in the meantime, we simply need to appreciate that Trump will continue the big lie.

What big lie? I believe the big lie was from his traitorous opponents and the MSM.

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And I'm going to remake an important point here.

I have yet to see in any of the multiple information sources I attend to in either mainstream or left-leaning media, a single instance of Dems/supporters turning on Mueller in the manner of right wing "deep state" conspiracy ideas and claims about Mueller. Not a single instance.

That alone tells us something very important about the present situation as regards what conservatism in the US has become. Rationalism and honesty are not to be expected. Power is their primary "value".

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@blatham,

Quote:

Rationalism and honesty are not to be expected.

From you, and you have proven that.

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And I'll make another point again.

If this report does what Trump/supporters claim and as Barr seems to suggest - that is, full exoneration of Trump and people around him in the campaign - then it would be directly and immediately beneficial to Trump's re-election hopes to release the full report and blast news of his innocence out into the ether.

But withholding such a release, axiomatically, points to something other than innocence.

Edit: Josh Marshall makes a good point:

Quote:

Now whatever is in that report will have to be navigated against the standard of total exoneration the President’s defenders have embraced.

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And let's add, for anyone who think citizens' wishes matter any longer, HuffPost’s poll produced similar results: 66 percent overall wanted to see the full version of the report, including 59 percent of Republicans and independents. http://bit.ly/2uExeux

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@blatham,

Quote:

But withholding such a release, axiomatically, points to something other than innocence.

It points to the fact Barr is following established DOJ practices and nothing more than that. Next.

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@blatham,

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: 66 percent overall wanted to see the full version of the report, including 59 percent of Republicans and independents.

And how does change the laws concerning the release and what should be redacted? It doesn't.

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@blatham,

McConnell blocks resolution calling for Mueller report to be released publicly

...as one does with a report that completely and totally exonerates you.

LMAO

1 Reply

Mueller: No further indictments

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