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What is it with These Guys ??

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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:06 am
Hmmm - since teachers here are not permitted to restrain kids - which would, if done properly and calmly, been what this kid needed (they can do it at special places for out-of-control kids) - police are called from time to time.

It is a pity, since proper, safe, physical containment is what that kid needed, until she was able to calm herself.

Handcuffs and being taken off in a police car was the over the top bit.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:12 am
msolga, the tactics used by the school to subdue that child were unnecessary as the teacher could have simply wrapped her arms around the child and held her tightly until other solutions were available.

The sugar rush that affects many hyper-kinetic children produces a situation were energy is instantly generated, and I'm surprised that that information wasn't available, via the files, to that particular teacher.

I'm almost certain that the teacher was using negative reinforcement by confiscating the jelly beans, which I happen to believe is not viable in a child that young.

There are many factors not available to us in this situation, but to hand cuff a baby is reprehensible.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:21 am
Just popping in and reading but they just showed a fairly lengthy story on this on my local channel.

Apparently this has been an on-going issue with this child and her mother had previously made several charges about abuse (physical) of her child by the school's vice-principle. It seems the school purposely taped the episode so they had evidence that the child was not being touched by anyone at the school because the mother had threatened to sue them previously.

Just from the process on the tape though I'd have to guess that this sort of thing had happened often enough that the school had a planned process to deal with this child's tantrums. When she started they removed all the other children from the classroom and 2 teachers talked to her for better than 20 minutes to calm her down enough that they could get her into an administrator's office.

Why the cops used handcuffs is beyond me. It's not like 4 adult police couldn't handle a 5 year old without them. I suspect they'll claim it was to prevent the child from throwing another tantrum and harming herself.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:31 am
fishin', I just watched that same thing on TV. It could be that the school prevents a teacher from touching a child in any way. The psycho-therapist observed that the teachers handled the situation appropriately.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:39 am
Letty wrote:
fishin', I just watched that same thing on TV. It could be that the school prevents a teacher from touching a child in any way. The psycho-therapist observed that the teachers handled the situation appropriately.


It could be Letty but I think the school staff went out of it's way not to touch this child in any way. Not a hand on her shoulder or an arm around her when they walked her to the office. They seemed to be going well out of their way not to touch her.

The idea that they had a video camera at the ready to tape the incident leads me to think there is a lot of history here that we haven't heard about yet. The school was fully prepared to document all of this.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:47 am
Letty

I suspect (though I'm not certain) that the teacher would not be allowed to physically restrain the child. In Oz it's strictly hands off, by law!

Regarding the sweets & "sugar hits": It is simply not possible for teachers to supervise what every single child does 100% of the time. If a child chooses to stuff themselves with sweets during recess/lunchtime, etc, they pretty well can unless some enforcable arrangement can be reached with their parents about it.

I have considerable sympathy with any teacher who has to deal with a child (or children, plural) whose behaviour is uncontrollable. Just think, that child is only one of maybe 25 children in that classroom & the teacher is supposed to educate the whole class while this is going on. And that child may not be the only one with behavioral problems in that class. However, police & handcuffing hardly solve the problem! I also think it's unforgivable that the video of the incident was aired on television. Are there no laws to protect children in circumstances like this?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:55 am
msolga wrote:
I also think it's unforgivable that the video of the incident was aired on television. Are there no laws to protect children in circumstances like this?


Most of our laws and practices prevent the public release by government authorities or the press of information that directly identifies a minor (i.e. publishing their name) but that's about it.

I haven't heard anything yet that said who released the tape to the press. It could have been done by the lawyer the mother hired for the lawsuit they are already preparing.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:57 am
Lawyers!

(Except you Fishin')
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 06:57 am
Please bear in mind we are talking about a five year old. This is disgusting that anyone is even defending this action.

If they knew the child was having problems enough to have planned ahead then those problems should have been brought to the attention of the parent and if the parent failed to do anything about it they should have reported to some kind of social services so the little one could have gotten help before being traumatized by being put in handcuffs and carted off to jail!
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:01 am
revel wrote:
Please bear in mind we are talking about a five year old. This is disgusting that anyone is even defending this action.


I don't think anyone is defending the handcuffing & police invovement, are they?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:03 am
dlowan wrote:
Lawyers!

(Except you Fishin')


I am NOT a laywer! lol I come from the criminal justice side of the house. Wink
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:03 am
yeh, they shoulda shot her with a trank gun, then shed settle down for a few hours. Of course thatd probly traumatize the other little larvae, so youd have to trank them too, cant have any witnesses.

Fishin, do you think that we could get a poster sized version of your hammered cat ?
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:06 am
fishin' wrote:
msolga wrote:
I also think it's unforgivable that the video of the incident was aired on television. Are there no laws to protect children in circumstances like this?


Most of our laws and practices prevent the public release by government authorities or the press of information that directly identifies a minor (i.e. publishing their name) but that's about it.

I haven't heard anything yet that said who released the tape to the press. It could have been done by the lawyer the mother hired for the lawsuit they are already preparing.


I just read the other thread. It was a lawyer who supplied the tape to the media.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:14 am
In college I studied to be a special education teacher, specifically for behavior disorders. I had extensive training in how to deal with incidents like this.

EVERY teacher should have to take a class or two on behavior management and learn the difference between negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement and punishment prior to getting their degree. (Might be a good idea for parents as well.)

This could have been avoided. And, yes, the jelly beans may have been a factor. But, if there are prior incidents as suggested, it should have been nipped the first time, and not allowed to escalate to this level.

The calling of the police (and her obvious understanding of the authority they weild, given that she sat down right away) was NOT a good thing. The school just gave this little girl more power in her eyes by letting her know they can't handle her behavior. They no longer have any authority with her.

And, what does an out of control child want most?

To know the adult(s) can help them get through it and set the bounderies for their behavior. Someone brought up Super Nanny. That's exactly what super nanny does. She makes the adults set limits, communicate them to the children and inforce the bounderies. It gives children comfort to know someone in this great big world is in control and they aren't in it alone and without rules.

So, this little girls thinking now goes something like this: If the people at school don't know what to do with me (a five year old) when I can't/ don't behave, then they cannot be believed to be in charge of anything. That's scarey. They are supposed to be adults. How can I feel safe with them if they don't even know what to do with a five year old? What if something really bad happens? Or something scarey or dangerous? They won't be able to protect me 'cause they can't even protect themselves from a five year old.

What a shame for all involved.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:16 am
Re: What is it with These Guys ??
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
[...While police say their actions were proper, school officials were not pleased with the outcome.

"We never want to have 5-year-old children arrested," said Michael Bessette, the district's Area III superintendent.

The district's campus police should have been called to help and not local police, he said.

Bessette said campus police routinely deal with children and are trained to calm them in such situations.

Under the district's code of student conduct, students are to be suspended for 10 days and recommended for expulsion for unprovoked attacks, even if they don't result in serious injury. But district spokesman Ron Stone said that rule wouldn't apply to kindergartners.


It does seem a strange set-up to my (Oz) eyes ... Campus police, but (according to setanta) no welfare officer. And what about counselling?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:17 am
msolga wrote:
revel wrote:
Please bear in mind we are talking about a five year old. This is disgusting that anyone is even defending this action.


I don't think anyone is defending the handcuffing & police invovement, are they?


It seems like it to me when people are defending the teachers actions. They're the ones who called the police. If the child was in a tizzy fit then what choice did they have but to restrain her if they had to remove her? Some kind of health services should have been called instead who knew what they were doing.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:26 am
Here's something to consider:

If this was not the first incident, the mother has complained before about teachers rough handling, and school officials had enough forethought to have a camera ready for the next tantrum to prove their innocence...

Why the heck didn't anyone think of an IEP and self contained classroom with a teacher trained to handle behavior disorders???
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:29 am
revel wrote:
If the child was in a tizzy fit then what choice did they have but to restrain her if they had to remove her? Some kind of health services should have been called instead who knew what they were doing.


That's nice in theory but it doens't hold up in practice. Social Services can't do much with a call from a school that a child is throwing a temper tantrum. They'd have no legal authority to intervene unless the parent requests their intervention.

If a child is arrested then the social services agencies are usually required to intervene and that is how they get brought into the process over-riding the parents wishes.

Since the parent in this case has been at odds with the school on numerous previous occassions I suspect we'll find out down the road that the parent/child were already referred to some sort of social services agency and refused.

It appears thusfar, that the school did exactly what they should have done. The police that responded are the ones that screwed up. They should have contacted social services and had a social worker respond with them.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:29 am
I posted to the other thread but I want to watch this one too....
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 07:47 am
Why am I not surprised that this child appears to have African American heritage?

http://www.tampabays10.com/assetpool/images/05422113333_girl.jpg

That video in her classroom is just sad. (Did you hear the heavy teacher say, "Can I tell her not to do that?" Why doesn't she know?)

Why didn't they offer that child something else to do and divert her attentions? Instead, they kept hammering away, "You were bad" "You did bad things" and not giving her anything else to think about or do. Honest to god, it seemed to me they were egging her on. Truly ugly.

It makes me wonder if public schools will ever work.
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