Police Handcuffed 5yrold Girl

When I went to school [in the olden days] that behavior would not have been tolerated. The child based on her previous behavior would not allowed to remain in kindergarten. Of course in those days teachers were not supposed to be surrogate parents. And schools were not child care facilities.

I heard him ask if she remembered him. I had the volume down lowish and my hearing isn't so good, so I didn't understand much else of what was said.

I went back and listened. In the video link Phoenix provided on page one of this thread it's at about 5:20 on the video.

Officer: "Do you remember me? I'm the one you told your Mom to put handcuffs on you."

So, maybe if she was being a little smarty pants... But, I still say it shouldn't have gotten to this point. Who's in charge here? The child or the adults?

littlek
A little spanking would go a long way. Let's face it those cunning little monsters [ I say that lovingly] are smart and know exactly what they can get away with. Parents must draw a line in the sand.
Here is an example my younger son when he was about two or three years old had a habit of banging his head on the wall {not to hard] and crying when he did not get his way. While he was acting up and banging his head my wife bent down and helped him. Not hard enough to hurt him but hard enought that he felt it. Needless to say he never did it again.

I still don't think spanking is neccessary.

That and the bleeding heart, fuzzy minded liberal politicians who appoint them. They are ruining this country, no doubt.

I have hearing difficulty too, LittleK, and didn't get much of the dialog, but I did hear the "do you remember me?" part.
I'm not opposed to the teacher's actions here, although if she did say the girl was bad, I'd prefer her saying being destructive is bad, but think the school administration should have long term policy in place that emphasizes positive reinforcement, as I gather it is called, and control that doesn't involve police with handcuffs - more in the order of calming room, calming behavioral help, certainly at this age.

Seems a horror to me that, with the child already quieted by the sight of the police, just sitting in a chair, the police, sans a counseler, went on to do the handcuff stuff.

Please give an example of using positive reinforcement as the child is punching you.

Is a good whack on the backside positive reinforcement? It does reinforce who is in charge.

Funny Osso. I was thinking the same thing. A closet sized empty room with a light and window on the door for kids to go to to calm down would be a blessing in many schools.

Some schools allow certain students to leave and go sit in the office or designated area if that is what they need to do to diffuse a situation. I had a student in my student teaching experience that got up and left the room. The teacher followed about 15 steps behind him to make sure he was going where he should, and then returned to the class. That was a remedy they had worked out for that student when he got overwhelmed.

I've also been in my childs school and seen a student come into the office and sit down. The principal acknowledged him and said something about "You doing okay? Just need to be here a few minutes?" The student indicated so and so was gettin on his nerves. The principal praised him for removing himself from the situation and encouraged him to return to class as soon as he felt he could.

I was thinking during this "Bravo!"

Briefly:

Negative Reinforcement: example spanking. If the child is seeking adult attention a spanking is negative (painful) reinforcement (still got the child what he wanted - attention and reinforces that next time he wants adult attention this is how to get it)

Positive Reinforcement: example touching and praising good behavior rather than waiting for bad behavior to occur. A touch to the shoulder and "I like the way you are working quietly, Lisa." is positive, and reinforces the good behavior IF that is what the child finds reinforcing. For some it may require more than verbal praise. Earning stickers for good behavior that can be turned in for something the child wants (lunchtime with teacher) is also positive reinforcement.

Punishment: example spanking. Spanking is punishment when it doesn't meet the childs need or desire,(such as a need for attention), doesn't reinforce positive or negative behavior (encourage it to happen again) and is negative in nature. Prison is punishment. Few actually want to go to prison. It is punishment for bad behavior and does not make the person say to themselves "I'm gonna do that again cause I really like the end result."

For the child in the video, it may have been negative reinforcement for the police to show up. See how she straightened up when she saw the officers? If she is craving bounderies and begging for adults in her life to set limits for her and help her control herself, the officers showing up was reinforcing her bad behavior. She'll do it again so the officer will come and let her know she has to stop 'cause no one else is making her behave.

I'm sorry, am I missing something?

I just watched a short version and then a 5 minute version of the tape.

I did not see an out of control child. I saw a girl who was extremely frustrated, that needed to be put in an environment where she could safely vent some of her energy.

You call that punching? 80% of the time she was more or less just swaying left and right with her lower arms held out. The few times she "landed" a punch, there wasn't a lot of force behind them.

Climbing on tables? She looked like she was trying to just get away from the teacher, who was on her back.
Myself, I can't stand it when people shadow me, I could feel the girls impotence because she didn't have the words to say, Would you just stand back!

Yeah, those were some pretty dangerous looking pieces of paper being torn off the bulletin board. Will they ever be able to get thoses post its off the floor?!

Looking at the office they were in, it looked no worse than any kids bedroom where they were playing for 5 minutes. There was not devastation.

I've seen kids out of control - kicking, biting, scratching, hitting, screaming, spitting, cursing.
I little kid can be more dangerous than an adult, unless the adult is in a full rage, they will hold back. A small child goes ALL OUT, and this little girl was nowhere near that point. I kinda admired her restraint actually.
Granted - she may have done that in the past, and the staff was taking precautions.
However, I can just address what I actually saw.

No the police should not have handcuffed her, there was no call for that.
However, I feel there are situations that for the childs safety, and others, they should be restrained.

I don't know what type of help the girl needs, or if she needs any at all.
However, I am surprised at the people in this forum thinking this girl was engaging in any type of extreme behavior.

Chai Tea
That kind of thinking is why the kids of today are out of control.

What do you mean au1929?

Chai Tea, just going on the evidence as shown in the video, I wouldn't call the girl out of control. But, I think this video was taken after she'd already spent a lot of her energy (I think someone said there was 20 minutes of in-class anger as well). She wasn't behaving well, but by the point the vid started rolling, she had good reason to behave as she was. 5 years olds aren't stupid. They know a lot more about human nature than most adults give them credit for. I think she was indeed feeling frustrated and trapped. She was also probably feeling a host of feelings about being taped.

I think the video showed the teacher behaving fairly well (not perfect), given the situation, but she knew there was a tape rolling. She was on her best behavior.

I guess we should wait until more info becomes available before we really start pointing fingers and getting outraged......

Actually positive and negative reinforcement don't have to be "positive" and "negative" in the usual sense. If a child is sitting there quietly but not getting any attention at all, and then jumps up and starts running around screaming and throwing things and that results in a great deal of attention, that's positive reinforcement. It reinforces that the way to get attention is to run around screaming and throwing things.

It certainly seems that negative attention is a bad thing, but for many kids, negative attention is much much better than no attention at all -- and then, for purposes of behavior modification, is positive.

I just re-read and see that squinney was saying basically the same thing.

This is more precisely what I'm getting at, about "positive" and "negative" being less about the niceness or unniceness of the reinforcement, but about addition or removal of a stimulus:

This is a little clearer:

Good points littlek & sozobe

Correct - children know SO much more than most people give them credit for. They understand so much, but cannot always figure out how to express it appropriately
Just ONE of the responces is acting out.
Yes, who knows what went on before. She may not have been as aggitated as before, but maybe didn't know how to segway into the next phase.
I think we've all done that, whatever ever it is has gone on too long, but we don't know how to gracefully move on.
Also, who knows what the rest of her life is like.....

Boy - Terrific point Sozobe, if I can't get positive attention, negative will do. At least you're paying attention to me.
That why I feel it is important to give a child OR an adult a place where they can go to cool down.
Sometimes, there no anger or aggitation, sometime we all need a little "me time" At my house, everyone gets some "me time", even the cat, no questions asked. It sure makes for a saner family.

If Au1929 is reading - I'm still puzzled by your response. What did you preceive my meaning to be?
Are you sure about such a blanket statement of - that why kids are out of control today?

Children need to know they have the freedom to act out - to a certain extent.
If you try to "control" a child, all you'll get is a very unhappy person.
Children aren't possessions you control - they are young humans you guide in certain directions and hope your doing a good enough job in sending them on their way.

Like I said before - I kinda admire that kids restraint - at that moment. The more I think about it, the more I'm feeling she was on the downside of whatever crisis she was in, but still was trying to maintain her rep of troublemaker.
Hey, we all gotta have a title -
Handcuffs at that moment - No

Oh - I just had a free ranging thought/memory!

All pychology on child rearing aside, keep in mind that teachers, social workers, and all other helping professionals are merely human.

Let's not kid ourselves. No matter how professionally we behave, no matter how much education we have, no matter what we aspire to become......sometimes we just don't like someone!

I'm not saying this is the case here -
But think of these possibilities - The teacher, no matter all the above, simply does not like this child.

Or
The child, no matter all the above, does not like this teacher person. - Sometimes it just comes out.

No kidding - I remember Mrs. McNeal, way back in 5th grade - She did not give me poor grades, she did not single me out in anyway - but at 10 years old, I knew that this woman simply did not like me.
Obviously it confused me back then, but today, hey, that's life.

If I wasn't related to some of my family, and met them for the first time, I wouldn't stay in the room 5 minutes with them (I don't anyway - hehehe)