8
   

Dems respect diversity but how deeply?

 
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Mar, 2019 07:24 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Personally, I only **** nuns, praying before and after. With Jesus on our side, conception is ruled out.

So, that's an option.

Do you regard yourself as a person who respects diversity even while you are symbolically spitting on Christian religious traditions?
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2019 12:00 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Do you regard yourself as a person who respects diversity even while you are symbolically spitting on Christian religious traditions?
I was raised Mennonite and my answer would be, not all christians or christian traditions. Just the really stupid ones whether that stupidity arises out of fixed ideas or tendencies towards authoritarianism and theocracy. Ought I to avoid spitting on the Catholic church for its centuries of child molestation, covered up by the highest levels of the institution? Ought I to avoid pissing on evangelicals who look forward to an end where only they arrive in heaven and everyone else (like all the Jews) burns forever? Ought I to blow kisses to a religious group who operate so as to enforce their ideas on others outside their faith community? Not going to happen.

Any faith group ought to be free to go about it's daily activities if they are merely minding their own business. There are, of course, thousands of such communities in the world (you won't find criticism or satire from me regarding Dervishes or Buddhist monks in a Tibetian monastery).

But the instant they set out to promote the expansion of their community's rules and laws to include others, then it is very likely I am going to identify them as potential enemies. If they are offended by anything I say or do, tough luck. If you get political, you are as legitimate a target for insult as any other political entity in the wider community.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2019 02:40 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
I was raised Mennonite and my answer would be, not all christians or christian traditions. Just the really stupid ones whether that stupidity arises out of fixed ideas or tendencies towards authoritarianism and theocracy.

And who are you to judge, exactly? Do you assume superiority? Why don't you forgive and love? Do you seek to help others or destroy them for the sins you judge them for?

Quote:
Ought I to avoid spitting on the Catholic church for its centuries of child molestation, covered up by the highest levels of the institution?

Do you think that child molestation is a byproduct of Catholic beliefs or of certain church members who abuse their position?

Do you think spitting on the church somehow does something to solve the problems you are blaming it for instead of the people who are perpetrating the abuse?

Quote:
Ought I to avoid pissing on evangelicals who look forward to an end where only they arrive in heaven and everyone else (like all the Jews) burns forever?

Christ died for everyone. All they have to do is accept that. How can you expect Christianity to preach salvation for those who reject belief in salvation?

Quote:
Ought I to blow kisses to a religious group who operate so as to enforce their ideas on others outside their faith community? Not going to happen.

Everyone enforces ideas on others outside their community. It's called government. Democracy is when you discuss ideas with others before making and enforcing morality instead of just doing it.

Quote:
Any faith group ought to be free to go about it's daily activities if they are merely minding their own business. There are, of course, thousands of such communities in the world (you won't find criticism or satire from me regarding Dervishes or Buddhist monks in a Tibetian monastery).

Do those religions preach withdrawal from the duties of democratic participation? Do they say their followers are supposed to abandon the world to non-believers?

Quote:
But the instant they set out to promote the expansion of their community's rules and laws to include others, then it is very likely I am going to identify them as potential enemies. If they are offended by anything I say or do, tough luck. If you get political, you are as legitimate a target for insult as any other political entity in the wider community.

Every legislative thought begins with moral beliefs. You cannot separate legislation from religion, only the state regulatory apparatus as a whole. That is done through democracy, checks and balances, and respect for liberty. Still, there are laws and policies that restrict liberty for the greater good when necessary, and even that involved religious/moral beliefs about what is right and wrong and ethical.

You shouldn't reject democracy by rejecting people's rights to "get political." 'Getting political' is our responsibility as citizens of democracy.
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Mar, 2019 05:45 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
And who are you to judge, exactly?
Silly. We all make moral decisions and moral judgments constantly.
Quote:
Do you assume superiority?
Sometimes, sure. Again, these are questions we all entertain. I'd assume that your moral behavior is superior to Hitler's and I'd guess you think so as well. I'll wager you believe that christianity is the one true faith, that is, you believe it superior. Or do you hold that there is no way one might insist that christian beliefs/ideas can be held superior to satanism? Or Jainism? Or atheism?
Quote:
Why don't you forgive and love?
Tell me about your love for Islamists.
Quote:
Do you seek to help others or destroy them for the sins you judge them for?
Depends on the sins, of course. Depends on severity of the "evil" involved and whether those "sins" are on-going or being planned. Would I destroy an active shooter in a mall if I could bash his head in with a baseball bat? Of course. But if you are suggesting there is any chance of christianity (or any major faith) being "destroyed", then you'd be a paranoid fool.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 01:53 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

And who are you to judge, exactly?


What about you? All you do is judge others, your obsession with other people's sex lives, coupled with condemnation for doing anything pleasurable is the most judgemental thing I've come across.

You really should see someone about your prurience. It's not remotely healthy, and you are a very disturbed individual.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 05:38 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
And who are you to judge, exactly?
Silly. We all make moral decisions and moral judgments constantly.

The two meanings of 'judgement' get mixed up. Judging someone in the Bible refers to condemning them beyond redemption, and often to death, for sin. In contemporary language, 'judge' is used more loosely to refer to moral evaluation. You are right that moral evaluation is legitimate and good. After all, you have to morally evaluate sin in order to forgive it. But the question is whether you are doing so within a paradigm of love and forgiveness or hate and condemnation.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you assume superiority?
Sometimes, sure. Again, these are questions we all entertain. I'd assume that your moral behavior is superior to Hitler's and I'd guess you think so as well. I'll wager you believe that christianity is the one true faith, that is, you believe it superior. Or do you hold that there is no way one might insist that christian beliefs/ideas can be held superior to satanism? Or Jainism? Or atheism?

Good is obviously superior to evil, but we are all sinners and so it is arrogant to assume superiority instead of staying humble. Just because Hitler's sins might have been worse than yours, doesn't make you a good person for feeling superior to him. What makes you good is when you humble yourself to acknowledge that we all struggle with sin, including yourself. The goal should be to get better and make things better, not to take pride in superiority to others.

Quote:
Quote:
Why don't you forgive and love?
Tell me about your love for Islamists.

Islam literally means submission to God. Through Christ we are all forgiven and redeemed, if we can believe. But God's love is powerful enough to motivate people to serve Him as well, and I think this is what motivated Mohammed in his prophecies and what motivates true Muslims to honor and serve God.

As for all this terrorism done in the name of Islam, I'm not so sure that's actually religiously motivated or if it is secular politics masquerading in the guise of religion. I can see how arguments both ways work. E.g. if you truly believe some Satanic force in the world needs to be fought, isn't it right to stand up to it militarily? But on the other hand, people could be perpetrating the socialist politics of manipulation through killing and torture and doing it in the name of religion to demonize religion in the process. Those are both possibilities.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you seek to help others or destroy them for the sins you judge them for?
Depends on the sins, of course. Depends on severity of the "evil" involved and whether those "sins" are on-going or being planned. Would I destroy an active shooter in a mall if I could bash his head in with a baseball bat? Of course. But if you are suggesting there is any chance of christianity (or any major faith) being "destroyed", then you'd be a paranoid fool.

It's more a question of your general philosophical attitude toward sin as something to be forgiven in order to redeem sinners or whether you see sin as an excuse to beat people down and otherwise destroy them. In other words, do you truly believe in salvation and redemption?

livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 05:44 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

What about you? All you do is judge others, your obsession with other people's sex lives,

When have I ever talked about sexuality except on a general level in general terms?

Quote:
coupled with condemnation for doing anything pleasurable is the most judgemental thing I've come across.

What condemnation? Disciplining and thus redeeming people from sin is not judgement/condemnation. The law punishes people in order to provide a deterrent to others. Ideally, people foresee the deterrent and modify their behavior to avoid it. Those who don't end up in jail, but ideally they can change their attitude and be released to turn over a new leaf.

Now let me ask you this: is the metoo movement about changing the world to stop sexual abuse or is it about suing and manipulating wealthy abusers to get their money and power from them?

Quote:
You really should see someone about your prurience. It's not remotely healthy, and you are a very disturbed individual.

You don't know me. You are talking to the specter of what you project onto me from within yourself because of your own fears and insecurities regarding moral discipline.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 06:17 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Judging someone in the Bible refers to condemning them beyond redemption, and often to death, for sin.
Why even bring it up. That has nothing to do with you or me or anyone.

Quote:
But the question is whether you are doing so within a paradigm of love and forgiveness or hate and condemnation.
This is a false dilemma and a fine example of how abstractions appear to make things simpler but in fact do not. Augustine stole an apple from a tree (Confessions). Hitler ordered the death of six million Jews.

Quote:
Good is obviously superior to evil, but we are all sinners and so it is arrogant to assume superiority instead of staying humble. Just because Hitler's sins might have been worse than yours, doesn't make you a good person for feeling superior to him.
"Good" is superior to "evil" because the words mean that. What is considered "good" in one culture can commonly be thought of as "evil" in another culture. Would your humility allow that present notions of gay sexuality held by many religious sects are no better or not superior to the notions held by Athenian society?

In any case, I'm not going to continue with this. I'm sure you are a fine fellow but this is the sort of conversation which does not interest me.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 06:40 am
@livinglava,
You talk about other people's sex lives all the time.

You have a problem, talk to someone about it.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Mar, 2019 02:33 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Judging someone in the Bible refers to condemning them beyond redemption, and often to death, for sin.
Why even bring it up. That has nothing to do with you or me or anyone.

Because it is relevant to what you said.

Quote:
Quote:
But the question is whether you are doing so within a paradigm of love and forgiveness or hate and condemnation.
This is a false dilemma and a fine example of how abstractions appear to make things simpler but in fact do not. Augustine stole an apple from a tree (Confessions). Hitler ordered the death of six million Jews.

Comparing sin with worse sin in order to feel better about it defies the whole purpose of confession, repentance, and salvation. It is an act of pride, which is sin in and of itself.

Quote:
Quote:
Good is obviously superior to evil, but we are all sinners and so it is arrogant to assume superiority instead of staying humble. Just because Hitler's sins might have been worse than yours, doesn't make you a good person for feeling superior to him.
"Good" is superior to "evil" because the words mean that. What is considered "good" in one culture can commonly be thought of as "evil" in another culture. Would your humility allow that present notions of gay sexuality held by many religious sects are no better or not superior to the notions held by Athenian society?

Cultural relativism is a complex manifestation of pride. Anyone can normalize any sin by reference to cultural beliefs and norms, but that just amounts to whitewashing.

Quote:
In any case, I'm not going to continue with this. I'm sure you are a fine fellow but this is the sort of conversation which does not interest me.

Then why do you engage in it?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Mar, 2019 07:11 pm
Diversity killer.

'SIX HOURS AFTER the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee announced that it was blacklisting firms that work with primary challengers, I met with a potential client who was considering a Democratic primary. The client told me that two consultants dropped out that morning — and now the candidate may not run at all.*
The timing of the DCCC’s blacklist is not remotely coincidental. In the first quarter of an off-year, many potential candidates decide whether to jump into a race. If campaign staff dries up before day one, a once-daunting campaign can feel impossible.

This is precisely what the DCCC wants. The committee is hoping that these young women will stop contemplating challenges against Democratic incumbents. We can’t allow the DCCC to succeed and block these brave challengers.'

https://theintercept.com/2019/03/25/dccc-blacklist-democratic-party/
0 Replies
 
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2019 01:13 am
@livinglava,


The minute you walked in the place
We could see you were a man of abstention
No shiv-in-shuvva
Old flour, unrefined
Telling us all what wouldn't be goin' on, in your mind
So let me jump right to the chase
You won't pop your cork with any girl you see
Liv-in-luva,
Spends too little time with the three

Wouldn't you like to have bible class
How's about some more laughing gas
It can show you some good ass
Jesus riding up en masse!

0 Replies
 
 

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