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Death Penalty Opponents, This Is Who You Champion

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 04:48 pm
old europe
We have no prisons we have hotels for the wayward.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 04:54 pm
gungasnake wrote:
150 Years ago there were no drug laws in America and there were no meaningful or overwhelming drug problems. How bright should anybody have to be to figure that one out?


There were no drug laws, BECAUSE there were no drug problems, or there where no drug problems BECAUSE there were no drug laws?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 05:03 pm
old europe wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
150 Years ago there were no drug laws in America and there were no meaningful or overwhelming drug problems. How bright should anybody have to be to figure that one out?


There were no drug laws, BECAUSE there were no drug problems, or there where no drug problems BECAUSE there were no drug laws?


The latter. The laws create the problems; it isn't complicated.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 05:06 pm
So you'd favor more of a Dutch-like approach to the drug issue, Gunga?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 05:17 pm
old europe wrote:
So you'd favor more of a Dutch-like approach to the drug issue, Gunga?


Ideally I'd like to keep the ban on two or three things which I view as Jeckyl/Hyde formulae (like PCP), but we'd be vastly better off just to legalize it all than to go on doing what we're doing.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 06:25 pm
au1929 wrote:
old europe
We have no prisons we have hotels for the wayward.


<tee hee>



<thinks>



<demoralized>
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:09 pm
Prohibition of drugs - in particular the weed called cannabis/marijuana has created a monstrous black market. Crooks make their money growing and distributing cannabis (stuff grows like the weed it is here) and then re-invest into opiates and amphetamines. It's the most stupid policy any government had.

On the death penalty. Australia last did it in 1967. No death penalty now. Country okay, not over-run by murderers yet. Yes vengeance is a righteous claim that society can make when some mongrel bastard commits a horrific murder but locking them up until they die in prison is the answer.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 07:24 pm
old europe wrote:
There were no drug laws, BECAUSE there were no drug problems, or there where no drug problems BECAUSE there were no drug laws?


Sorta got a false premis goin' there, OE. Ya might wanna look into The Opium Wars. Then, there's the History of Cocaine in America, strongly intertwined with the nostrums labeled Snake Oil - a key reason the US Food and Drug Aministration came into bein'.

If you're really interested in Drug Policy over the years, here and abroad, here's a fascinatin' (though not strictly non-partisan) website: Schaffer Library of Drug Policy
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:12 pm
Oh yeah. Transform the country into a Stalinist regime and we'd root out those criminals and druggies. Heh heh.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:15 pm
Just drive them further underground, more likely . . .
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:47 pm
The one guarantee you get with prohibition is that folks'll find a way to make big money gettin' around it. Them folks tend to be pretty assertive when it comes to their personal fiefdoms, too.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 08:56 pm
Anybody who knows me knows my remarks were tongue-in-cheek rather than foot-in-mouth.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 09:02 pm
timberlandko wrote:
The one guarantee you get with prohibition is that folks'll find a way to make big money gettin' around it. Them folks tend to be pretty assertive when it comes to their personal fiefdoms, too.



What's your actual position on drugs and the "war on drugs"?

Note that Ambrose Bierce would likely have defined "War on" more or less thus:

"War on", n. A government program designed to increase the prevalence, pervasiveness, supply and/or availability of, e.g. "war on poverty", "war on drugs" etc.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 09:15 pm
yeah really War ON Terrorism comes to mind pretty much immediately. I'm assuming the current War on Liberals wil have the same effect.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Apr, 2005 10:17 pm
They will grow and prosper?

Like the war on drugs?
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watchmakers guidedog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 12:19 am
Wow, I go away for a few days and this thread explodes. Forgive me for raising a rather old point again, then.

timberlandko wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
Moral relativism and ... situational ethics equal ... intellectual ... bankruptcy
watchmaker's guidedog wrote:
I disagree. What proof do you have for this?
It goes to the nature of truth. A truth either is or is not, an act or thought either is moral or it is not, is ethical or not; else, the paradox of conditional absolute.


Interesting fact, in French a certain combination of syllables means a seal (the animal), in English the same combination of syllables is a vulgar term for fornication. How their meaning is interpreted depends upon who is speaking, who is listening, where they are and thoroughly influenced by cultural values. Certain scientists believe that there are certain universals to language and that some patterns are very common throughout most languages with only a few exceptions.

The situation with morality is almost absolutely identical. Hardly surprising since they are both human brain functions. Yet it is clear that while the system of morality, much as the system of language, is semi-universal to the human race the contents and application of that system vary between individuals and cultures.

I'm afraid that to me, your statement was very illogical. Paraphrased it basically consisted of:

"Proper discussion requires that we phrase things in objective practical terms. Therefore we must all pretend that all subjective things are in fact entirely objective or we are intellectually bankrupt. Rather than merely reducing the subjective things to their objective components, as I did (or attempted) with my analogy above."

Yet perhaps it's only my personal code of logic that leads to this conclusion. Wink
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:09 am
That's odd Lusatian. The main reason I stated I was against the death penalty is a quote from the Ten Commandments - "Thou Shall Not Kill." I am from the US and quoting from the Bible really doesn't make me sound too much like a flaming liberal.

Ditto edgarblythe's comments.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:21 am
Linkat wrote:
That's odd Lusatian. The main reason I stated I was against the death penalty is a quote from the Ten Commandments - "Thou Shall Not Kill." I am from the US and quoting from the Bible really doesn't make me sound too much like a flaming liberal.

Ditto edgarblythe's comments.


That's a mistranslation. It should read, "Thou shalt do no murder." We have to be able to kill in self defense and there's nothing in the bible, properly translated, which forbids that.

I say again, these are the conditions I'd want for hanging somebody:

1. Guilt beyond any doubt whatsoever of a crime which warrants the death penalty.

2. A continuing threat to the public inherent in keeping the guy alive.

3. The elimination of the adversarial system of determining guilt or innocence. There must be zero possibility of somebody getting hanged to advance the political career of some district attorney.

Assuming all of those conditions hold, you're not murdering anybody by hanging them.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:32 am
watchmakers guidedog wrote:
Interesting fact, in French a certain combination of syllables means a seal (the animal), in English the same combination of syllables is a vulgar term for fornication. How their meaning is interpreted depends upon who is speaking, who is listening, where they are and thoroughly influenced by cultural values.

That is an interesting curiosity, but I don't think the distinction gets you very far in practice. The string, "Richard Dawkins est un auteur très interresant" either is or is not a valid English sentence. The string, "sdoi we2sdfk, www1k!!!" either is or is not a valid sentence in any language. Likewise, "it is wrong to rape babies for fun" either is or is not a true statement of American ethics, and of every code of ethics anywhere in the world. True, there are regions of ambiguity and ambivalence. But the Catholic position, 'ethical propositions either are or are not true', seems a much better first approximation to me than 'anything goes, depending on the cultural context.'
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:33 am
timberlandko wrote:
old europe wrote:
There were no drug laws, BECAUSE there were no drug problems, or there where no drug problems BECAUSE there were no drug laws?


Sorta got a false premis goin' there, OE. Ya might wanna look into The Opium Wars. Then, there's the History of Cocaine in America, strongly intertwined with the nostrums labeled Snake Oil - a key reason the US Food and Drug Aministration came into bein'.

If you're really interested in Drug Policy over the years, here and abroad, here's a fascinatin' (though not strictly non-partisan) website: Schaffer Library of Drug Policy


Nah, not really, Timber. Was just askin' Gunga. I have to admit that I don't know too much about the legal implications of the issue north of the US-Mexican border.

Thanks for the links you provided, though. Will follow them. Gracias, señor.
0 Replies
 
 

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