Aww, goodfielder.... Don't know whether there is really a right or a wrong. I was just thinking, at one point: Hey, what an interesting thread. That was somewhere between being accused of being a US-bashing snob because I don't favor capital punishment and reading mysteryman's concept for a new Stalinist regime.
I was really wondering if anybody might come up with a good reason to support the death penalty. Foxfyre made some interesting points (from a pro-DP pov), and I really enjoyed the discussion. Some people made interesting points, too.
Apart from that it seems that nobody wants to question or discuss the existance or benefits of the death penalty. (I know... nobody reads a bit strange, as we're already on page 43 of this thread, but.... given the importance of the topic... to me, anyway...)
Yep. Will stop whining now.
I don't have a problem with killing people if I'm not actually doing it. I'm more than happy to let the state do it for me. I just want to make sure there is absolutely no doubt at all - no doubt whatsoever even to the most minute degree that he/she did it. No smidgeon of doubt that they did it. That they deserve to forfeit their lives.
Having said that I have to admit that I have been in some situations where I had to choose whether or not to kill someone. I'm glad to say I didn't have to. I also have to say that I would have done it no problems. And I still sleep okay.
The difference is that on those couple of occasions it was me with a gun and him with a gun and both of us realising it (and thankfully my exhortations won out).
I wasn't sitting listening to an argument that someone probably did it. While I might be persuaded that someone should be convicted and sent to prison for life I doubt if anything could persuade me that someone should be killed for it. Unless of course I were there and they were pointing a gun at me and I had to kill them. And thankfully I didn't have to.
goodfielder, that was one of the most substanstial posts on this thread.
mysteryman wrote:My answer is...
If you are over 16 years old,and you commit a CRIMINAL ACT,that either accidently or intentionally results in the death of another person,then you deserve the death penalty.
There are 2 exceptions to this rule.
People that are mentally retarded,or people that are committing the crime under Duress.
How hard is that to understand?
and then Eorl wrote "Good luck getting anyone to work in a hospital".
I think Eorl was referring to the fact that you believe an accidental criminal act should result in the death penalty alongside an intentional criminal act. I'm not sure what criminal act could occur
accidentally in a hospital - unless it was some kind of criminal negligence - but the death penalty does seem a little harsh for what is essentially manslaughter.
Old Europe - I'm an American and I'm anti-death penalty. For reasons that I'm sure have been stated over and over (I admit I couldn't read all 43 pages of responses)- but in a case like this - I'd be hardpressed not to kill that guy myself. There was a case of child molestation (not murder) a few years ago. The guy got some stupid little sentence and the mother brought a gun to the courtroom and shot him. I could relate, I really could. And in this case, just picturing that little girl gasping for her last breath and shivering in the dark terrified - I'd really be tempted. I'd just rather take responsibility for it myself than have it enacted by the state. I couldn't really tell you why. It's just a visceral reaction I guess. Scares ne a little because I think of myself as a pacifist- but although I'm anti DP - I definitely don't consider myself this guy's "champion" - that's kind of insulting...
It was intended to be insulting, that's how Lusatian works.
Thanks Setanta - I'm learning a lot today
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aidan wrote:Old Europe - I'm an American and I'm anti-death penalty. For reasons that I'm sure have been stated over and over (I admit I couldn't read all 43 pages of responses)- but in a case like this - I'd be hardpressed not to kill that guy myself. There was a case of child molestation (not murder) a few years ago. The guy got some stupid little sentence and the mother brought a gun to the courtroom and shot him. I could relate, I really could. And in this case, just picturing that little girl gasping for her last breath and shivering in the dark terrified - I'd really be tempted. I'd just rather take responsibility for it myself than have it enacted by the state. I couldn't really tell you why. It's just a visceral reaction I guess. Scares ne a little because I think of myself as a pacifist- but although I'm anti DP - I definitely don't consider myself this guy's "champion" - that's kind of insulting...
I agree. Being in that situation, I wouldn't know what I would do. I still want to believe that an enforced 'life without parole' sentence would be something I could live with.
I wonder if - had all the states the option to sentence somebody to life without parole (Texas and New Mexico don't) - life sentences would be enforced, strictly enforced - could more people accept it to abolish the death penalty?
If using insult was Lusatian's main failing, most of us might still take the time to engage him and just send a better class of insult back at him. But he is untutored, careless in both thought and speech, pretty much impervious to correction or admission of error, and emotionally comfortable with all the above.
And usually absent from the thread . . . his posts are often of the character of a stink bomb thrown into a crowded room while running by . . .
Yes, but who cares... We could start a new thread, but really.... Who cares?
DrewDad,
You said...
"And what is the burden of proof that must be met? You're advocating some pretty harsh sentences, here. Is it still just "beyond a reasonable doubt?" Or is the burden of proof harder to meet? Or easier?"
In many instances the burden of proof would be harder to meet.
I would use hypnosis,"truth serum",eyewitness testimony (and yes,I know its notoriously innacurate),video evidence if possible,and anything else I could think of to arrive at the truth.
But,if your caught standing in someones front yard,with the bloody knife in your hand,a dead body in the house,and the victims jewelry in your pocket,I would say that is pretty conclusive.
For all crimes,the burden of proof would be harder to meet.
That way,the prosecution has to work harder,and actually invest some time and energy,instead of just "mailing it in".
The rules for the defense stay the same,that way the defendant has every advantage,and his rights are protected.
I could do a thread on my system of justice,its pro's and con's,but I really dont think anyone is that interested.
aidan,
You said..."I think Eorl was referring to the fact that you believe an accidental criminal act should result in the death penalty alongside an intentional criminal act. I'm not sure what criminal act could occur accidentally in a hospital - unless it was some kind of criminal negligence - but the death penalty does seem a little harsh for what is essentially manslaughter."
I am sorry,I must not have been clear.
I am not referring to an "accidental crime" at all,let me explain.
You go into a liquor store with a gun,with the intention of robbing the place.
During the robbery,you shoot and kill the clerk.
That qualifies for the DP.
BUT,if that same clerk drops dead from fright,shock,a heart attack,or any other cause that can be DIRECTLY CONNECTED to your actions,even if you never touched that clerk and didnt mean to hurt anyone,you still deserve the DP in my opinion.
You are still directly responsible for that persons death,even if you didnt mean to cause it.
That is what I mean by "accidental death" during a CRIMINAL ACT".
Sorry if I wasnt clear.
Quote:I could do a thread on my system of justice,its pro's and con's,but I really dont think anyone is that interested.
I am. But I could be a bit of a pest I think - in a nice way of course
OE,
You said..." mysteryman's concept for a new Stalinist regime."
That is a gross misstatement of my views.
I am not advocating anything more then people be held responsible for their actions.
How is that "Stalinist"
mysteryman wrote:Eorl wrote:mm
Good luck getting anyone to work in a hospital under those conditions.
Why,are people that work in hospitals going to commit CRIMINAL ACTS?
You seem to overlook that part.
....
Again,littering is a crime,and if in the commission of that crime someone dies,then the offender also forfeits his or her life.
Look, call me crazy, but if was signing up for medical school, and I was told that just one case of "criminal negligence" against me would result in my complete destruction, I thinking seriously about being a concert pianist instead.
As for the option of being a nurse, with those hours, the varicose veins, the lousy pay AND a death sentence hanging over me.....I'd rather scrub floors (and hope nobody slips over !! )
blatham wrote:If using insult was Lusatian's main failing, most of us might still take the time to engage him and just send a better class of insult back at him. But he is untutored, careless in both thought and speech, pretty much impervious to correction or admission of error, and emotionally comfortable with all the above.
Such astute observations from one so learned. While I cannot challenge the incontestably apparent wisdom in your words and the rest of the blather that you post, and while I must retreat and lick my mortal wounds from the
better class of insult that I have just suffered, please rest assured that after many years of profound study, apprenticeship under masters of knowledge like yourself, and deep coffeeshop meditation into such cataclysmic questions such as the meaning of life, the dawn of liberalism, and secret ingredients in a cup of Starbucks, I will still find those like yourself to be a societal weight necessary in a free society, but hopefully checked to prevent a rampant run of ridiculously free, and airy, thought, and the annoying hum of Kumbaya.
Setanta wrote:And usually absent from the thread . . . his posts are often of the character of a stink bomb thrown into a crowded room while running by . . .
Unlike some here, who obviously possess limitless amounts of time with which to unleash whole chapters of their unbridled drivel, I have time constraits that manifest themselves far more often than I would like. Today, for instance, is a perfect example. I have just returned from spending four days and three nights on rainy, miserable, mountains along the Pakistani border, executing a rather interesting mission against a rather interesting target. And yet, evidently, I have been absent due to my confusion and fright after being exposed to such raw intellectual power as yours attempting to show me the error of my ways. Please feel free Setanta, as you so often do, to compose an entire volume of plagarized lectures. I may find the time to read it, and it will prove very entertaining.
As to that crowded room of cutting edge wits and liberal dynamos, the stink bomb should be a welcome change from the collective stench.
