If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28)Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridgedThe Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under "Hell" says: "Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment." The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the "nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness."

The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: "Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception."

Look up the words 'sheol', 'gehenna', 'hades' and 'tartarus'.

I guess we are just not going to get all the answers until the very end, are we? But, I suppose by the end of times, it won't matter what all the answers were.

I will look up those words. Thanx!

It makes a lot of difference when we come to understand what is meant by "God is love".

Well...since the god of the Bible is anything but a "god of love"....and certainly would only be described as "god is love" by someone in extreme denial...

...I would say that what is meant by "god is love"....is equivalent to the stuff that comes after the first 200 pages of the Old Testament.

The first 200 pages tell us about the god....what the god is like....what the god expects of us....the advice the god gives us.

There is goddam near no love involved in any of that.

The next 1000/1500 or so pages are filled with frightened people proclaiming their undying love for this barbaric, murderous god.

It seems obvious to me that most of that crap is nothing more than ass-kissing....being done by people who are in abject terror of the god.

I hope that was of help, Neo...although I do not understand why you suppose "it would make a lot of difference."

Hey...by the way, Neo....

...if you don't agree with my take on the god of the Bible...I'm willing to try a bit of a contest with you or anyone else who sees this god as a loving, understanding, kind god.

Let's go to the parts of the Bible where the god is actually on the scene...either talking or appearing....

...and you cite a passage where the god is on the scene and is showing compassion for the human predicament....where the god is not killing anyone, asking anyone else to kill anyone...or not threatening anyone.

I will then cite a passage where the god is on the scene and is killing someone, asking someone else to kill someone....or threatening someone.


Let's see who runs out of citations first.

Okay?

You start.

Name an instance where your god is on the scene primarily to show compassion and understanding of the human predicament....and is not killing, requesting killing, or threatening.

Go 'head!

Frank!

God's last name is not dam!

Really!

And, pray tell, what is it?

Well, since you seem to think you know so much about Him, why don't you know what his name is? It's in the Old Testament, right where you seem to be stuck.

And like I said before Frank, why must you resort to foul language or criticisms? I don't see anyone else here doing that. I have asked you repeatedly (and I do mean repeatedly) to not do that.

I have been asked to preface my states with "in my opinion, or I believe" and I don't mind doing that at all. I have been told that it may appear I am forcing my beliefs if I don't do that. So, I do it.

What is your problem? Are you so full of hate and anger that all you want to do is lash out and fight? If that is the case, I hear they have forums for that too.

We have been engaging in conversation of what we believe. We have been asking questions of each other and then try to provide the answers.

And if Neo doesn't take you up on your offer, I sure wouldn't blame her/him. Even when you are shown to be in error, you just ignore it.

So please, one last time, can you refrain from using the God of my understanding's name in vain?

I am still praying for you, Frank. Maybe that's why you are so angry.

Gimme a goddam break, will ya, Momma.




This is a forum intended for criticisms....and as for the "foul language"...why must you designate certain language as "foul?"

Stop doing that....and there won't be any "foul language."




Learn how to have more spine...and if you can't you really shouldn't suggest that others be spineless also. It doesn't really help you.





Moi???

You've got me all wrong, Momma.

I'm a peaceful, loving, incredibly happy and content guy.

We're just having a bit of fun here.

Stop being a wet blanket.

Fight if you've got the stomach for it....or go somewhere else. Stop trying to manage the way I post.





This is one of them.




Okay. So???




Neither would I...nor almost anyone else! And we both know the reason for that.





Every time I've been shown to be in error....I have acknowledged it. Most of the time, you folks haven't even come close to anything like that.

Name something specifically that I am in error on....and we will see if I ignore it.

Momma....I don't ignore a goddam thing! (Said with my usual huge smile on my face, of course.)




Sorry, Momma...but I cannot accomodate you on this.




Thanks...I appreciate the sentiment. I am wishing you good luck too, Momma.





One...I would NEVER be angry with anyone "praying for me."

Two...I am not angry.

You know Frank. I do feel sorry for you. You are like a little child that has been told they shouldn't do something so they continually do it. Bad attention is better than none.

I have spine, Frank. If you think a big tough guy like you has to use profanity to make his point then you are not nearly as intelligent as I gave you credit for.

And oh yeah, give you a break because you don't know what the Old Testament says God's name is? Why? Have you given anyone else here a break because they didn't know something? Look it up, Frank. It's in the story of Moses and the burning bush. Tells you exactly what God's name is.

And you are proving my point about ignoring what has been pointed out to you.

Once again - the guidelines for this forum specifically states about it is not a place to attack someone's personally held beliefs. What part of that don't you get?

And as for the prayers, all my friends are praying for you too.

You may not love God, but He still loves you.

Nah, nothing like that, Momma. But I don't mind you "feeling sorry" for me. I know how superior that makes you religious types feel....and it costs me nothing to add to your happiness.




That comment had nothing to do with "profanity"....and everything to do with sticking to one's guns.




Ah....gimme a break. Sure hope you aren't one of those Jehovah's Witnesses. They all have stone heads.




I doubt that....but once again, if it makes you happy to think that...please be my guest.




In other words you think the guidelines prevent me from calling a comical, murderous, barbaric, jealous, vengeful, revenge driven, quick-to-anger/slow to forgive, tyrannical, petty god a comical, murderous, barbaric, jealous, vengeful, revenge driven, quick-to-anger/slow to forgive, tyrannical, petty god?

Nah. I think you've got that wrong.




Hey....I mean this in all seriousness....please thank them all. I appreciate the sentiment behind all that praying. I also wish you and them all the very best. And that is sincere.




Well, I don't really know if there is a God (and suspect you don't either)....but if there is a God....I certainly do not "not love" It. In fact, one of the reasons I think so little of the comic book god....is because I consider supposing that to be GOD...to be an insult to any GOD that does exist.

I really mean that!

Oh, I see. Do as Frank does and you are ok.

Frank can tell you that you have a problem but you can't tell Frank that IN YOUR OPINION he has a problem.

Frank gets to make the rules and decide what profanity is or not.

Frank gets to decide how to interpret the guidelines set foth in the forum.

Frank can make judgments about you but you can't make a "judgement" about Frank. (Makes you religious types superior?)

Jehovah's Witnesses have stond heads? Wow, bet it's hard to walk around with all that weight.

And for the last comic about ....slow to forgive.....? No one asked you not to say what you don't believe. What I asked you was why do the rest of us have to use In My Opinion to preface a statement like that and you don't?

You know, the others of you just standing idly by and seeing both sides, I would welcome a bit of help here. If I am wrong in asking Frank not to call the God of my understand a "piece of shyt God or and idiotic God" or use His name in vain, then someone please tell me what they think.

And the ones of you that encouraged me to use words like in my opinion, etc., what happened to you? I started using those words and for all the world wanted to be sure I wasn't shoving something down someone's throat.

I feel like Frank has his arm down my throat to his elbow! Somebody, take a stand here and jump in.

Well, to be honest....most of the time I do feel that.



Why not? Where did I say that?





Well...most of what you call "profanity" truly isn't. But I guess they don't teach you the difference between "profanity" and "vulgarities."




Ahhh....and I should let you decide instead.

I've broken the rules on a few occasions....and I've been thrown off A2K twice.

In any case....if words like "shyt" or "goddam" bother you so much....why not hang out in a church instead of an Internet forum?



[quoteFrank can make judgments about you but you can't make a "judgement" about Frank. (Makes you religious types superior?) [/quote]

I've never said you cannot make judgements about me. Why are you making this stuff up?




Yep. And yep.

You are a JW....aren't you!




EVERYTHING I SAY HERE IS IN MY OPINION.

I am an agnostic.

Momma....you are out of control. Go do some praying. Or is it preying that you guys do?

Now why would that be?

Neo made a bold statement.

So Frank issued him a challenge.

That seems like a very reasonable challenge to me. Pure research, no name calling, letting the Bible speak for itself. You said your self that you were not very familiar with the Old Testament and that you wanted to learn more. What more could you ask for than two debaters that know the Bible inside out spouting scripture back and forth? It could be a learning opportunity for all of us. Could it be Momma Angel, that you really do not want to know the outcome of such a challenge?


When praying to an all powerful God you need to be mindful of what you are asking for. To see what I mean, click here.

The War Prayer by Mark Twain

OMG! You actually said you agreed with something! I may faint.

Look, I don't want to fight with you. I found this forum and saw some pretty interesting stuff here. I would post things and get back things about how I was making judgements. I tried to make it clear that I wasn't. I just wanted to share with others what I thought and what they thought.

To me using God's name the way you do at times, is profanity to me. I don't find it useful in any conversation to belittle or criticize. It does nothing but detract from the conversation.

You continually seem to want to be right, while all the time accusing "believers, Christians, religious types" of thinking they are self-righteous because "they" think they are right? And, as of yet, I have not told you your beliefs are wrong.

I keep trying to get you to just have a discussion without attacking because I believe you are an extremely intelligent person and I believe you can learn something from everyone. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

If you don't agree with something then fine, don't agree. But why is common courtesy so hard for you?

Like I said, I don't want to fight. As a matter of fact, I'd like to get back to the discussion that was in progress.

If, you feel it necessary to continue using vulgarity, etc., then Frank, I'm just going to ignore it. Maybe I should have before. I just hate double standards.

So, can we please, find a common ground here and continue the discussion?

Mesquite,

I have no problem with the challenge, if it was done in the manner you say. I have the problem with the verbal attacks and the double standard.

I am not afraid of any challenge when it comes to God. The Bible proves His existence and His forgiving loving ways.

I have already learned quite a bit by engaging in different topics and I welcome that.

I just don't welcome the unnecessary use of words or phrases designed to belittle or criticize.

There is so much knowledge out there and if we shared it and didn't shove it down each other's throats we would all benefit.

So many words. OY!

OK, Frank! Here's what I have to say:

You don't accept the bible as truth so I will start you of with allegory based on the first few chapters of Genesis. Adam and Eve were perfect; they had free will and they sinned. You don't have to believe it except for the sake of argument.

The punishment for their sin was death. Also, since they were no longer perfect, they could not pass on perfection to their offspring. You might ask why didn't God zap them on the spot and start over? Good question. He had the power. He had the right. But what would have been the consequences?

First, you and I would not have been born. That's pretty important to me and my family, Frank. I can only guess it is important to you as well.
Second, there would have been no answer to Satan's implied accusations that God did not have the right to set standards for humans and that no creature would serve God except out of self interest.

I truly believe that Satan figured he had God in an impossible situation - that God would either have to forgive Adam and Eve or abandon his purpose for mankind to live forever peacefully on earth. If He forgave Adam and Eve, that would make him a liar, since He told them they would die. It would also call into question his quality of justice. I mean, how do you react when folks break the law and get away with it? If he zapped Adam and Eve immediately, He would be forced to abandon both his purpose and their future unborn offspring. So much for the God , Jehovah, whose name means 'He who causes to become.'

But God did not have to execute the death penalty immediately for, in case you haven't noticed, the seventh creative day had not yet ended and Adam and Eve, having now lost their perfection, began their physical decline toward death on that very solar day. You've heard the expression 'dead man walking', haven't you Frank?

Now as the result of all this, every human born since the Edenic rebellion has been under the sentence of death, because of being unable to escape sin. "For the wages sin pays is death. . . " Remember?

Pharaoh was under the sentence of death.
Moses was under the sentence of death.
Every Jew was under the sentence of death.
Every Canaanite was under the sentence of death.
Every Greek
Every Egyptian
Every Roman
Every Christian
Every Pagan
Every Muslim
My ancestors
Your ancestors
Me, You
Everybody.

Not fair, you say? You would have preferred not to have been born? What if I told you that all those who never knew God have been promised a resurrection in which they will be given a fair chance to live the life that Adam and Eve lost?

Will it matter how they died?
If they burned to death?
If they died by the sword?
If they died peacefully in their sleep?

And after they have lived a few hundred years will they curse God for the pain they suffered or thank God for the life they have been given?

You see Frank, It does no good to compete with you in a good god bad god match. All the misery of human history can be traced back to Satan and his recruitment of Adam and Eve. Of course, the misery has been helped along by power hungry priests and politicians. But don't blame God.

If you can't stand this heat, Frank, I don't know what to suggest. I'd hate to see you check out of the kitchen just before the banquet is served.

It wasn't me that proposed the format. it was Frank.


It almost sounds as though you are ready to accept the challenge yourself. If you need a few links to online Bibles which you can use for cut and paste, here are a couple.

Blue Letter Bible ( Has word search)

Bible Explained

Skeptics Annotated Bible My favorite.


Stick and stones...

Each person has their own individual writing style. I prefer to think of Frank's style as colorful. Did you read my Mark Twain link? Mark Twain also was criticized for his use of language.

Mesquite,

You posed this to me:

Once again I refer you to their difference between old and new and ask how you resolve the conflict. To me they are polar opposites, yet the Christian religion is based on their meshing.

I did some research and this is what I am posing to you.

I believe that at the very heart of this question lies a fundamental misunderstanding of what both the Old and New Testament reveal about the nature of God. Another way of expressing this same basic thought is when people say: "The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love." The fact that the Bible is God's progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to people's misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament, however when one reads both the Old or the New Testament it quickly becomes evident that God is not different from one Testament to another and that God's wrath and His love are revealed in both Testaments. For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be "merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth." (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31: Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5: Psalm 86:15: Psalm 108:4: Psalm 145:8: Joel 2:13) and yet in the New Testament God's loving-kindness and mercy is manifested even more fully through the fact that "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). Throughout the Old Testament we also see God dealing with Israel much the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would chastise them and yet each and every time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. This is much the same way that we see God dealing with Christians in the New Testament as well. For example Hebrews 12:6 tells us that "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." In a similar way throughout the Old Testament we see God's judgment and wrath poured out on unrepentant sinners. And likewise in the New Testament we see that the wrath of God is still "reveled from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18). And even with just a quick reading of the New Testament it quickly becomes evident that Jesus talks more about hell than He does heaven. So clearly God is not any different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament. God by His very nature is immutable (unchanging) and while we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, He Himself does not change. When one really begins to read and study the Bible it becomes clear that God is not any different from the Old Testament to the New Testament. And even though the Bible is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), it remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. In it we see how a loving, merciful and just God deals with sinful men in all kinds of situations. Truly the Bible is God's love letter to mankind. God's love for His creation, especially for mankind, is evident all through Scripture. Throughout the Bible we see God lovingly and merciful calling people into a special relationship with Himself, not because they deserve it but because He is a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth. And yet we also see a holy and righteous God Who is the judge of all those who disobey His word and refuse to worship Him, instead turning to worship gods of their own creation, worshiping idols and other gods instead of worshiping the one and only true God (Romans 1). Because of God's righteous and holy character, all sin past, present and future must be judged. And yet God in His infinite love has provided a payment for sin and a way of reconciliation so that sinful man can escape His wrath. We see this wonderful truth in verses like 1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In the Old Testament God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin, but this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a real substitutionary atonement for sin. The Savior that was promised in the Old Testament is more fully revealed in the New Testament and the ultimate expression of God's love, the sending of His son Jesus Christ is revealed in all its glory. Both the Old and the New Testament were given "to make us wise unto salvation (2 Timothy 3:15) and when we study them more closely it really is evident that God is no different in the New Testament than He was in the Old Testament.