If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Well I see everyone's in a good combative mood today.

What are fiends for?

It is quite lively in the S & R forum today, Boss . . .

headofthefield
Ignorant, I don't remember calling Christians Ignorant. As for arrogant I think you are speaking of the other thread and in a different context. However, if I did could you point it out to me.

As for slamming Christianity. When Christians tell me over and over if I do not believe and follow Jesus I will go to hell or be punished or whatever. As far as I am concerned they deserve any slamming they get.

I should add the Jews have been murdered because of that kind of rhetoric thru the ages and i will never let it go unanswered.

We may be seeing homosexuals being murdered as well. They seem to be the new target of hate for conservative Christians.

Conservatives, political or religious, need to hate something. Hate is the magnet that pull all the wackos in and gives them a common bond.

We should just ban all religion

neologist
If they could, think of how many wars would be averted.

Can never do that.

NDE tell humans that a God and souls exist. The difficulty is trying to relate God to our world.

Those who tried have made a fascinating discovery. They (the religious leaders) found they could control the hearts and minds of their neighbors. It was especially easy to do if they used fear. It was very easy among ignorant people.

Despite todays science and technology our world is still full of ignorant people that can be manipulated through fear.

It doesn't even have to be religion. Look what Bush did.

Have you read this? http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50801 OOOPS! I suppose you have, au

There is one serious problem with that. We would have to create a toltalatarian world. Freedom would be extinguished. What America stands for would be destroyed.

That in itself will result in many deaths. People will fight and die for their religion and national self-interest. Look at Iraq today.

Don't be surprised if the day comes when the entire world will be as angry as you are with the excesses of the clergy.

It happened once. It was called The Age of Enlightenment. A rebellion against state and religion.

Some of the leading Founding Fathers were products of that age. They were Deist.

If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?
The topic question is strange to hear, but I get it.

Jesus died because there is a hell. If there wasn't a hell, no damnation for humanity, then there wouldn't be a need for the existence of Christ. He didn't die to forgive us; he forgave sins during his life. He died to save us from hell.

There are many diffent Christian sects, some are zealous with bringing fear to people's hearts by shouting damnation and brimstone for everyone. Then there are those who say there is no hell. If there isn't one, there would be no reason for people to live morally, since by that teaching they were bound to be saved anyway.

Christians who say there is no hell dismiss many parts of the Bible. They disregard a lot of Christ's teachings and instead choose to focus on the more appealing doctrines: Jesus loves everyone. God is kind and merciful.

The path to salvation is narrow and straight. Christ himself said many would come, claiming to be his follower, and decieve many. He knew that not everyone who professed God's name would be saved. But which Christians are wrong and which are right are a different topic, so allow me to get back on track.

Hell is mentioned many times in the bible. Christ was very serious about it, and he said: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. -Mark 9:43-48.

Of course, gouging body parts doesn't remove sin, since it is within our being. His imagery meant that we must try to do whatever it takes to keep us from going to our downfall, even if it means denying ourselves wordly pleasures.

The main arguement of many who deny the existence of hell ask if God truly was a God of love, why would he send anyone to hell? But God doesn't send anyone at all, it's us who lead ourselves there. If a child, despite his parents' pleading and intervening because they knew he'd fall of a cliff, keeps on walking the direction he wants, and falls to his death, can we say the parents did not love their child?

Blakwater

As with most all fundamentalists Christians you are clueless as to what God is or wants. NDE is the best non-dogmatic source of what God is.

What I'm going to talk about here is the life review all souls go through when they leave here.

Kenneth Ring, a leading researcher in this field, states in his book 'Lessons from the Light';
"In my opinion, no feature of the NDE is more important as a guide to daily life for those who have not had an NDE than the life review."

A life review in not experienced by all those who have had a NDE. But for those who do experience it the effect is profound. Life review is the instantaneous view of everything that has happened in your life. Here's what some who experienced it have said;

"The life review was absolutely, positively, everything for the first Thirty-three years of my life….from the first breath right through the accident."

"My life passed before me….even things I had forgotten all about. Every single emotion, all the happy times, the sad times, the angry times, the love, the reconciliation-everything was there. Nothing was left out."

In God's dimension there is no time. The life review is instantaneous. People describe it in metaphors. The person experiences it from a dual perspective, that is from the player and the viewer.

Why is there a life review. Because life is a lesson. Life is not a one time deal where you had better select the right faith or spend eternity in the fires of hell.

Again Kenneth Ring;
"They teach us, unmistakably in my judgment, how we are to live. It is as simple as that. There are certain values-universal values-we are meant to live by, and life review episodes contain vivid and incredibly powerful reminders of these values."

Some examples;
"You are shown your life-and you do the judging. Had you done what you should do? You think, 'Oh, I gave six dollars to someone who didn't have much and that was great of me.' That didn't mean a thing. It's the little things-maybe a hurt child that you helped or just to stop to say hello to a shut-in. Those are the things that are most important."

From Goran Grip who had a NDE at age 5.
"Going through what happened to us (him and his younger brother), my focus was not on what we actually did to each other. The emphasis was all the time on our exchange of emotions. And because of the love and understanding radiating from the being of light, I found the courage to see for myself, and with open eyes and without defenses, what in my actions had caused him pain. And for most of the episodes we went through, the being offered me an alternative way to act; not what I should have done, which would have been moralizing, but what I could have done- an open invitation that made me feel completely free to accept or not accept his suggestions."

Some lessons are not very nice. If you inflict pain on others you will feel that pain. You will relive what the victim experienced so you understand what the consequences of your behavior was. This is role reversal in the life review.

From David Lorimer, "Whole on One;
[A prisoner found that a scroll began to unroll before his vision and comments;] And the only pictures on it were the pictures of people I had injured. It seemed there would be no end to it. A vast number of those people I knew or had seen. There were hundreds I had never seen. These were people who were indirectly injured by me. The minute history of my long criminal career was thus relived by me, plus all the small injuries I had inflicted unconsciously by my thoughtless words, looks and omissions. Apparently nothing was omitted in this nightmare of injuries, but the most terrifying thing about it was that every pang of suffering I had caused others was now felt by me as the scroll unwound itself."

This gives a whole new meaning to the Golden Rule; "Do unto others as you would be done to" You see it will be done to you in the life review. Remember this; "Love your brother as yourself." In the life review you are the brother.

Who goes through this process? Everyone, bar none. It matters little what your faith is or your behavior. Atheist or Pope all are equal in God's eyes.

The Light is love. Love is unconditional. It plays no favorites.

So don't think your going to get a special deal from God because of your faith. Love doesn't work that way.

Hate does.

Hi blakwater;
Welcome to the forum. I see you are acquainted with the bible. Tell me. If God had in mind a punishment greater than death for Adam and Eve's disobedience, don't you think it would have been fair to tell them first?

And if the reward for obedience was a journey to 'the light' why would God tell them to 'fill the earth and become many?'

A reply to Caesar (RE: If Jesus died to forgive us, then why
Why is it that no one has been able to properly answer such a basic question with so many replies ? Is this a hang out for those who have no business discussing such matters unless drunk, high or both ? Having said that, let us address the primary problem which is expressed in the assumption(s) of the one (Caesar) asking such a question.

False Assumption #1: Caesar assumes that the goal of Jesus was to die and/or forgive.
It was not. Clearly His mission was to obey the Father and in doing this led to a set of circumstances that would eventually lead to His death. It was His obedience (lack of blemish / imperfection, or sin-a term relating to archery used by the romans) during the somewhat brief life that He lived on earth that made His death significant. What I mean by this is that He and He alone was able to be offered to God the Father as a perfect, acceptable, and pleasing sacrifice, thus resulting in having the ability to satisfy the wrath of God the Father. A just God is by His very own nature bound to punish evil. Does anyone reading this really believe that Hitler should never answer for his actions ? or that the horribly damaging act of child molestation is good ? If so, you deserve what you will get and shame on you for living.

False Assumption #2: Caesar assumes that hell is for us (you and I).
Clearly it is not. The bible states that the "lake of fire" (most commonly and wrongfully referred to as hell)
was prepared for the devil and his angels. It is commonly agreed among biblical scholars that Satan and the fallen angels (now demons) rebelled against God and fell from grace before the creation of man (adam and eve) and at this point their abode of eternal punishment was brought about [An infinite punishment for sins against an infinite God.] Now before you get all teary eyed and start to dig into yours Rolling Stones collection to play "sympathy for the devil" consider the following:
1. Lucifer was created as an arc angel and was endowed with beauty and splendor second only to the Lord Himself
2. His actual duty was to be the merchandiser of praise between God and His creation. Lucifer was to collect the praise and worship from creation and then deliver to God His due. Keep in mind that this was in a perfect (work) environment as this is before his fall and before the destructive consequences of sin… so he had no reason to desire a change other than out of pure selfishness. Unlike today, he existed in a state of blissful perfection and had no need of a better standard of living (such as a pay increase, better working conditions, shorter work week, etc..)
3. God was/is/will always be good. Sin has never changed this and it never will. Lucifer adored Christ so much that he said "I will be like (as) the Most High". It is said that "imitation is the ultimate (form of) flattery", however in this instance flattery was not a compliment but a back handed slap in the face for perfect environment, job, etc…There is no vacancy in the trinity, all positions have been filled and He will never be accepting resumes as there is no need. You, I, and Lucifer are created beings not the Blessed Creator and regardless of how we feel about this, it will never change. I suggest we learn to know our places and accept our lot in life as not being gods and get with the program to find out Who is God.

Correct Assumption #1: Caesar recognizes there is a God and Jesus is significant:
Caesar, if you are sincere in your quest for truth, you will be satisfied. This reply is in no way intended to belittle you or single you out. My frustration is with those who in their replies reveal either their ignorance, laziness or both, wasting your time and mine. I had a ex-friend who is agnostic but claimed to possess such great programming skills and flawless logic. The problem with him and others like him is that they are unwilling to admit that they are extremely religious and highly committed to their faith. Their faith is nothing more than pure and simple self-deism as they are their own god. Sadly though, I have not met one yet who has been able to create a solid argument based on any semblance of logic let alone create their own universe like the God of the bible has done. The increasing amount of scientific knowledge being made known in these "last days" is actually from God and only serves to verify, not disprove biblical history.

Case in Point:
It wrongfully understood by many that the Hebrews of the time after Joseph were enslaved to build the pyramids of Egypt - which we all know from the discovery channel is dead wrong. In fact the bible never once says that the Hebrews for enslaved to do the jobs the ancient Egyptian nationalists would take pride in. They were in bondage to carry out the jobs nobody wanted to do, the chores of slaves which in this case was to build "store-cities". In an attempt to support his stance, my ex-friend sent me an article online that stated that all archeological to date has only shown to disprove the bible - the problem is that is a "bold faced lie". Now I know that the article he referenced was on the internet and being a programmer, I should know that everything on the internet is true or else it wouldn't be so widely available - right ???... but it was dated to 1991, which is ancient (pardon the pun) by today's information standards. Besides, I watch the discovery channel and all its affiliated line ups and I tivo them too. They have revealed two cities that in every detail match the cities the Hebrews build will in captivity - Pthom and Raamses. So my point is ??? My point is that if you have closed your heart to the truth than you can expect to receive exactly what you want from God which is NOTHING. Like my selfish ex-friend you are your own god and will have no other gods before you. However, if you are still a serchin' then you can be rest assured that He will match your desire to find him. As it is written: "Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD" (Jeremiah 29:12-14(a) (New International Version))

In Closing:
If you have read my reply, then take time like I did for Caesar and reply to it…I was not raised in a religious home so it there is hope for me then there is a double portion of hope for you.
- Just Kaus -

Hi jk67110;
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for your many words. Now, what is your point?

Jk




I see you start out with what au has such contempt for; arrogant, pompous conservative Christians who think they alone are the only ones who have the right to discuss their religion. You are the perfect example of why there should always be a separation between church and state.



First of all Christ was not perfect. He was intolerant, rude and had a bad temper. Christ invaded the Temple with his band of brothers to drive out those who were selling animals to be sacrificed, a custom of their religion dating back hundreds of years. Today this would be equivalent to some SDA invading a Baptist church with sticks and rods, driving them out of their church because they were not observing the correct day of worship.

So what was the purpose of Christ's behavior? To impress upon his fellow Hebrews that his way is the only way? No one has the right to revere God in any manner then what he, Jesus, sees? Or perhaps he was deliberately doing something stupid so they will execute him and he could save the world. You know the arrogant conservative religious mentality; 'I am God. I can save the world. Let me so something dumb so they will kill me. I shall be the sacrifice that will save mankind.' Is that what Christ was all about?

Which leads to something even more ridiculous; why does God need any sacrifice? Sacrificing something the Gods goes way back to the time of great ignorance, when men believed if they didn't make the Gods happy they will bring calamity upon them. They sacrificed all sorts of things trying to figure out what will make the Gods happy; legions of enemy soldiers, babies, animals of all descriptions, and now, a perfect human.

The Christians sold a new product. They said sacrifice will not prevent calamities on earth but it will prevent calamities in the afterlife. Nice trick. They knew nothing would prevent calamities on earth so they picked something that could never be verifiable, or so they thought. They picked the afterlife, claiming they had the special knowledge to know what will make God happy (nothing new here) and save the soul from damnation.

It was a good idea. Even today we see all sorts of religious charlatans selling all sorts of religious faiths, most using hellfire and damnation to scare the beJesus out of them. And don't forget; there's quotes galore in the Bible that will allow anyone to sell any medicine-oil religion.

And remember only they have the right to talk about it. Everyone who disagrees is either lazy, ignorant or weasting their time.



Again your dead wrong. You are making God into a human by that statement. You are giving God the humans traits of vengeance, hate and killing.

Sin, evil and morality are in the eyes of the beholder. Each beholder will make his version of evil coincide with their Gods. Evil for one Christian sect will be different from another. Consider the contrast between SDA and Mormons.

NDE tells us that God does not punish evil, that is, not in the way you think. He lets our mistakes be our guide in teaching us to be better.

You mentioned Hitler. This is from Kenneth Rings book 'Lessons from the Light.' This goes hand in hand with what my last post says. One of the questions always asked of him in his talks is will everyone find themselves in the presence of the Light (God).

"I remember an answer that was given to this query by an NDEr friend of mine who, as a child, had suffered severe sexual and physical abuse from her father. When she found herself in the Light, she asked it telepathically, 'Does everyone come here?' She was told, 'Yes.' Then, she herself asked the very question that represents the limit for most people: 'Even Hitler?' 'Yes.' And then, pushing the light further, she found herself asking, 'Even my father?' Again, 'Yes.'

But when she told of her encounter with the Light, she also happened to mention the other side of the coin- the life review.

'Multitudinous actions or thoughts, derived from my own meanness, unkindness, or anger, caused me to feel the consequent pains of other people. I experienced this even if at the time I had hurt someone. I had chosen to ignore how that would affect them. And I felt their pain for the full length of time they were affected by what I had done.'"

What punishment, if you want to call it that, there is does not come about because of what ones religious beliefs are but how you behave towards your fellow souls. The atheist is treated no differently then the Bible screaming fundamentalist.

But for some strange reason the Bible screaming fundamentalist always think they're going to get a better deal.

neologist,

can you tell me the question that started this thread in the first place. Are you being rude or do you not know how to read

from my reply:
"...So my point is ??? My point is that if you have closed your heart to the truth than you can expect to receive exactly what you want from God which is NOTHING. Like my selfish ex-friend you are your own god and will have no other gods before you. However, if you are still a serchin' then you can be rest assured that He will match your desire to find him. As it is written: "Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD" (Jeremiah 29:12-14(a) (New International Version))"

xingu

It is better to be thought of as a fool and remain silent, then to open one's mouth and remove all doubt - which is exactly what you have done here.
"I see you start out with what au has such contempt for; arrogant, pompous conservative Christians who think they alone are the only ones who have the right to discuss their religion." Can I get a complete sentence ??? anyone ??? You are lazy as well or do you not spell check what you write ???
Furthermore, this discussion thread started with a question and you in your infinite ignorance have failed to see "The Light" so as to realize you have violated the rules of this posting site as your topic is in the wrong area. Although I do believe NDE's can for some be valid spiritual experiences, you do not at all disclose that they can also be reproduced in the laboratory as the brain is deprived of oxygen. In addition to your devotion to your narrow point of view, you conveniently leave out any testimony of those that have had the dark NDE's and as a result have turned from sin to become better humans. As far as your evaluation of Christ, you do not know what the Law of the Old Testament dictated and what it condemned so I will save my comments and let you address your insults with Him face to face at your death. In closing, you really reveal your utter stupidity as you are unaware that one of Satan's most prominent attributes is that he is the light bearer. You don't even consider the power that he has over you and all who are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit to deceive you. Your flesh is his playground to do as he wishes. Since you are unaware of this, I will be praying for him to reveal himself to you so that you may repent, turn to Chist and be saved. So please let me know of any out of the ordinary happenings in the next few days/weeks. So please try to make certain you put your brain into your head before you write this time…and stop assuming that everything you have read is true and by that I do not infer for you to call into question the testimonies within Mr. Ring's book, I mean the interpretation they derive from such experiences. Try to ponder this food instead of just gulping it down without any consideration of alternative viewpoints. Satan is a deceiver, and if you don't realize it, well, my friend, it is because you are being deceived.
- Just Kaus -
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