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Too Pretty To Be Hired?

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:33 pm
As far s I can tell, she's not saying of herself that she's pretty and sexy -- she's saying someone ELSE said that, and that it ain't right.

Quote:
In court documents, Goodwin said her supervisor told her she was ``a joke'' at the university's main library, where she ``was seen merely as a pretty girl who wore sexy outfits, low cut blouses, and tight pants.''


If true, I'd agree it ain't right. I don't know whether she's telling the truth or not about what her supervisor said.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:34 pm
And think about this -- say she graduated at 22 and took two master's in three years, making her 25, then she's been working in the field for 16 years - that would make her early 40s.

If she's in her 40s she is damn good looking...

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/fotosrch/3/20050321BX102.jpg
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:35 pm
Hm......botox?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 03:12 pm
OK, but am I missing something here? Why didnt she just apply for a job at another university? I mean, with her qualifications and job experience ... If you find they won't promote you at your current job, time after time after time after time (sixteen times?!), wouldnt any sane person just walk away and take a better job at a competing university? I mean, I know about slamming your head into a brick wall, and the mysterious strains of the mind that can make you do it time and again - but to blame the university for the emotional distress and lost wages that doing it and doing it again brought about? She could have walked away any time, right?
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 03:25 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
It is kind of curious that someone would remain at the same position for 9 years despite applying for numerous promotions. If they wanted to keep her, why wouldn't they try to help her develop her career? And if they didn't want to keep her...


Probably based on her minority status.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 04:33 pm
One of the articles said she's 40, I think.

I think that IF she was specifically not promoted because of her appearance (as long as it didn't violate any specific standards -- not ridiculously low-cut or whatever), she has a case. I mean she could go somewhere else, sure, but that still doesn't make it right or legal. People who experience any kind of discrimination can go somewhere else -- a guy who's told he won't be promoted because he's gay, whatever. He can still sue.

What I don't like about this whole thing is the whole "Ooooh, she thinks she's all that" schadenfreude thing. Like the article that has a supremely unflattering picture with a green background. That whole angle is just silly, and could obscure a real case.

But I don't know if this is one or not. Court decisions so far would seem to indicate "no."
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 05:00 pm
sozobe wrote:
I mean she could go somewhere else, sure, but that still doesn't make it right or legal. People who experience any kind of discrimination can go somewhere else -- a guy who's told he won't be promoted because he's gay, whatever. He can still sue.

Well yeah, obviously - if she was discriminated against, that aint right, and should be censured. Not my point though. I was responding specifically to this bit:
Quote:
Harvard. Goodwin, now 40, says in her lawsuit that she has suffered emotional distress and lost $150,000 in wages as a result of Harvard's failure to promote her since 1999.

I mean, that doesnt make sense to me - not when she was rejected 16 times in those six years. If she was rejected just the once, and it was on the basis of discrimination, that alone would give her a case for suing. And I can imagine that - if thats what happened - incredulously, she would try again, even a third time (and it would bolster her case). But sixteen times? Banging your head against that wall six years in a row? That was her choice, I'd say, and it doesn't sound much like a healthy or rational one. If being rebuffed like that caused her such emotional distress, why didnt she just walk away after the third or fourth time?

Thats what I dont get about it, is what I was saying I guess (tho I know about banging your head against walls). And yes, secondly, that means - yeah - I can see blaming the university for not promoting her on the basis of her sex/race/looks - that part's easy. But blaming them for then spending six subsequent years trying sixteen times again? Just seems such a waste ...
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 05:55 pm
Quote:
A spokesman for Harvard University said the court's verdict supported the university's stance "that racial and gender discrimination were not a factor".

"Employment at Harvard is based on the specific work skills and work history applicants bring to specific jobs," he said.


Anyone know anyone with a graduate library degree? I do. Way too many of them. The degrees are about as useful as biology degrees. Tremendously popular areas of study, and there is a frighteningly large number of people with grad level library and biology degrees working as clerks - it's been like that (in Canada at least) a good 20 - 25 years.

People with grad degrees in these two areas in particular will often take reception/stock room jobs just to get their foot in someplace they want to work. The competition to move up is very stiff, unless you've got some amazing specialty area.

You can be as pretty or ugly as anything - you need a crazy strong academic background to get anywhere in library science.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:23 pm
16 consecutive promotion turn-downs? At the same employer? Girl's got no case, she's gotta problem. A real big one. And it ain't physical.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:36 pm
ehBeth's comments could explain why she waited it out so long, though. She had her foot 16 years inside a door that might be pretty tough to get through. And through pretty prestigious doors at that. Obviously someone thought her credentials were pretty good at some point.

And yeah... something was holding her back.... some kind of problem.

I'm not saying that the problem was that Harvard acted in a racist/sexist manner but I would still really like to hear who was promoted around her.

While this doesn't stink it doesn't smell too good either, from where I'm sitting.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:40 pm
nimh, there also could be considerations about her not wanting to move - maybe she has family there, or maybe the benefit package was good, or maybe she would lose money by moving a retirement account, or she liked the job other than the fact that she was passed over so many times, or a million other things.

That would be another interesting thing to hear.

I hope she starts yakking it up.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:45 pm
6 years in one job is not really that long in library world.

based on friends here, i'd guess she's got junior to intermediate qualifications for the library she wants to be in - and would need further academic qualifications to move up.

a master's degree or 2 in library science really isn't great shakes, academically, in that world.

ask around. most of you have probably met at least two Starbucks barristas with a masters level degree in library science. seriously.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:50 pm
I'd like to see work performance ratings of hers and others (I know, it was said they were good, and of course, none of my business). Not all graduates of programs are equal, and not all programs are equal; some students make it out of school through sticktoitiveness. Not that I think school stars are always the best achievers later on. Or even that achievement makes one a worthwhile person. Or that any of this has to do with looks or race. Probably not, and my hunch is a problem too. But y'never know until you try the shoes on.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 06:52 pm
Since this is the third forum she's taken this before, and the third forum she's lost her case in, seems she may not have much of a case. Or none.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:00 pm
Yeah.

Basically, all of it could make sense -- the staying, the trying 16 times, the discrimination, all of it. Boomerang and ehBeth have given a lot of plausible reasons/ scenarios. Especially, I think the fact that this is Harvard is significant. That's about as prestigious as it gets, something you cling to if you have it, even if you think you deserve more and even if you keep trying to get more.

But it does mean something that it's been examined by courts who presumably have all the info we're wondering about, and found against her.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:07 pm
Yes, agree. I must've skipped over the Equal Opportunity and other review before this came to this court; plus, I was putting aside the fact that this court found her not to have a case - not that I dismiss their opinion, but I wanted to mull it over.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:08 pm
It's been tried up the ying-yang. 5 out of 6 positions were filled by women, 100 documents presented over 2 weeks in this case, references provided by the woman who she claimed discriminated against her (who coincidentally is married to an African-American).

Quote:
Harvard attorney Richard Riley said Goodwin's supervisors encouraged her, helped her with her resume and recommended her for other positions. For each job she applied for, Harvard received applications from dozens of other qualified applicants from across the country, he said.

Goodwin's claims were dismissed by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination.
(CNN - I dropped the link Embarrassed )

If you can get at the article in the Harvard Crimson, it's quite interesting (they seem to be having server load problems, so I couldn't go back to it when I wanted to get the link).


<I just read that her other degree is in English Lit. Now there's a marketable degree. Rolling Eyes >
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:24 pm
I was unaware that library science was such a sought after degree and I haven't read anything about the case other than the link provided in the first post so I bow to your superior knowledge.

I don't think I've ever known anyone with such a degree but I went to art school so go figure!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:27 pm
OK - so whatta we got here again? Lessee - 16 consecutive promotion pass-overs, and three filed, duly- even extensively - litigated, and dismissed court actions. Yup .... thats enough for me. I think this one's done.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 07:33 pm
Seems to be done, yes.

I was sort of annoyed by the effort to pull Summers into it.

On people who've got masters in library science, I know one that I know I know of, as opposed to barristas whose background I don't know - a friend who is head librarian at an LA city library. Although I am thinking we know an a2ker...
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