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I don't hate America,i need some help

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:51 am
old europe wrote:
It's actually quite ironic how much effort Gunga and chiczaira put into explaining why they hate France, in a thread titled "I don't hate America,i need some help"...


The French should not lose a minute's sleep over the possibility of guys like me hating them. They've got much bigger hate problems...

Quote:

Mugged by la Réalité (Weekly Standard)

The unreported race riot in France.

by Olivier Guitta

04/11/2005, Volume 010, Issue 28



FREDERIC ENCEL, PROFESSOR OF international relations at the prestigious Ecole Nationale d'Administration in Paris and a man not known for crying wolf, recently stated that France is becoming a new Lebanon. The implication, far-fetched though it may seem, was that civil upheaval might be no more than a few years off, sparked by growing ethnic and religious polarization. In recent weeks, a series of events has underlined this ominous trend.

On March 8, tens of thousands of high school students marched through central Paris to protest education reforms announced by the government. Repeatedly, peaceful demonstrators were attacked by bands of black and Arab youths--about 1,000 in all, according to police estimates. The eyewitness accounts of victims, teachers, and most interestingly the attackers themselves gathered by the left-wing daily Le Monde confirm the motivation: racism.

Some of the attackers openly expressed their hatred of "little French people." One 18-year-old named Heikel, a dual citizen of France and Tunisia, was proud of his actions. He explained that he had joined in just to "beat people up," especially "little Frenchmen who look like victims." He added with a satisfied smile that he had "a pleasant memory" of repeatedly kicking a student, already defenseless on the ground.

Another attacker explained the violence by saying that "little whites" don't know how to fight and "are afraid because they are cowards." Rachid, an Arab attacker, added that even an Arab can be considered a "little white" if he "has a French mindset." The general sentiment was a desire
to "take revenge on whites."

Sometimes petty theft appeared to be the initial motivation. One or two bullies would approach a student and ask for money or a cell phone. Even if the victim complied right away, they would start beating him or her. A striking account was provided by Luc Colpart, a history and geography teacher and member of the far-left union SUD. Colpart said the scenes of violence were so disturbing that he could not sleep for days. He saw students being beaten or pulled by the hair. He stressed that assailants who stole cell phones smashed them in front of their victims: "It was a game. Hatred and fun."

Colpart, who is active in anti-racist causes, confirmed that "these were racial assaults," and the attackers used "far-right slurs, violent and racist." One black student he saw come to the defense of a fellow student under attack by three blacks was called "a white sellout" by the assailants. Some scores of victims were taken to hospitals. Those who were interviewed confirmed that they had been caught up in an "anti-white" rampage and that the cops did nothing to protect them.

In response to this event, a group of leading public figures, along with 1,000 high school students, issued a statement denouncing "anti-white" pogroms. Among them were the philosopher Alain Finkielkraut, the journalist Jacques Julliard from the weekly Le Nouvel Observateur, former minister of public health and founder of Doctors Without Borders Bernard Kouchner, bestselling Iranian-born author Chahdortt Djavann, the journalist Ghaleb Bencheikh, and the film director Elie Chouraqui. At a press conference announcing the release of the statement on March 25, Finkielkraut denounced Francophobia and Judeophobia.

Julliard, writing in the Nouvel Observateur, expressed dismay at the lack of public outcry over this display of racial hatred. He added that the left had already made the mistake of not denouncing violence in schools or soaring crime rates. And he sharply rejected the view endorsed by most left-wing organizations and individuals that the violence was an expression of class struggle, a clash between rich and poor. "Anyone should be ashamed," Julliard wrote, "after all we went through in the 20th century, to offer such a coarse explanation. . . . There is no good and bad racism."

Interestingly enough, Serge Romano, a leading representative of the black community who did not sign the public statement, readily admitted, "The young people came to beat up whites." He called the event "a catastrophe," but added, "we unfortunately expected it." One of the major anti-racist organizations, LICRA (Ligue Internationale Contre le Racisme et l'Antisémitisme), pointed out that the same people and organizations who failed to recognize the wave of anti-Semitism in France beginning in 2000-2001 are today unwilling to face up to an outbreak of racial violence.

By coincidence, last week the French government's human rights commission delivered to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin its 2004 report on racism and anti-Semitism in France. The report underscores a worrisome pattern of retreat into separate ethnic communities. And the evidence of hostility is sobering: The number of violent acts and threats nearly doubled, from 833 in 2003 to a record 1,565 in 2004. Of these, 62 percent were
directed against Jews, who make up just 1 percent of France's population.

These figures, of course, capture only incidents sufficiently severe to come to the attention of the authorities. Beneath the radar are other incidents, seemingly petty, yet telling, such as one I happened to witness in a Paris department store a few months back. A woman was pushing her baby in a stroller down an aisle. Behind her was a well-dressed, prosperous-looking Arab woman in a hurry. Suddenly the Arab woman pushed the mother, saying, "Move, dirty Frenchwoman" ("Dégage, sale française"). The familiar epithet "dirty Jew" is apparently being extended for more general use.

Another remarkable verbal innovation is the use of the word "Gaulois"--an inhabitant of Gaul, the part of the Roman Empire that became France--to identify the non-Jewish, non-Muslim, non-black French. Today, the term is used mostly by Muslims and blacks, but, amazingly enough, French whites are starting to pick it up as the rift between ethnic communities grows wider. Journalist Stéphanie Marteau, in an online interview about her new book on Muslim France, for example, speaks of "the Gaulois vote."

Nowhere are the new tensions more obvious than in schools, as documented in a report on the Islamization of French schools delivered to the minister of education in late 2004 by the inspector general of national education, Jean-Pierre Obin. Not publicly released at the time, it has since been leaked and posted on the website Proche-Orient.info.

Obin discusses the attitudes of Muslim students, some as young as first graders. He reports, for instance, that Muslim students, asked their nationality, answer, "Muslim." When they are told that this is not a nationality and they are French, some insist that they can't be French since they are Muslim. This should come as no surprise. The presidential commission that examined the issue of secularism in 2003 reported that "extremist groups are working to test the Republic's strength and push some young people to reject France and her values."

Obin concludes his report with an appeal to the lucidity and courage of French leaders. So far, however, the Chirac administration has shown little willingness to address the new racism. It was similarly slow to recognize the largest wave of anti-Semitic vandalism to hit France since the 1930s. And Chirac personally blundered last July 14, when, in the course of his traditional Bastille Day press interview, he distinguished between "our Jewish and Muslim compatriots" and "just plain French." Jacques Chirac must know that fraternity is one of the pillars of the French Republic. If it crumbles, the whole house will collapse.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:53 am
old europe wrote:
Funny. Gunga. Very funny.

Now back to the topic: why do so many people hate America? Bush's America, that is?



Stupidity is one explanation. Then there's the thing about losers hating winners; that one's always good for a few hate points...
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:55 am
gungasnake wrote:
old europe wrote:
It's actually quite ironic how much effort Gunga and chiczaira put into explaining why they hate France, in a thread titled "I don't hate America,i need some help"...


The French should not lose a minute's sleep over the possibility of guys like me hating them. They've got much bigger hate problems...



Maybe, Gunga. I think the US have much bigger problems than the French hating Americans.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 09:26 am
old europe wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
old europe wrote:
It's actually quite ironic how much effort Gunga and chiczaira put into explaining why they hate France, in a thread titled "I don't hate America,i need some help"...


The French should not lose a minute's sleep over the possibility of guys like me hating them. They've got much bigger hate problems...



Maybe, Gunga. I think the US have much bigger problems than the French hating Americans.


That goes without saying. Deciding what I"m going to eat for lunch is a bigger problem than that.
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:27 am
Goodfielder- Of course, You may be able to find such a book. It probably will be written by Seymour Hersh. But if you look further in the pile, you may also find a volume entitled- "The fastest zipper in DC" subtitled- "How Clinton lost the House and Senate for the Democrats"
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:27 am
Goodfielder- Of course, You may be able to find such a book. It probably will be written by Seymour Hersh. But if you look further in the pile, you may also find a volume entitled- "The fastest zipper in DC" subtitled- "How Clinton lost the House and Senate for the Democrats"
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:05 pm
old europe wrote:
Maybe, Gunga. I think the US have much bigger problems than the French hating Americans.


Ticomaya wrote:
That goes without saying. Deciding what I"m going to eat for lunch is a bigger problem than that.



Should have said: "A bigger problem than the French hating the US might be, for example, a North Korean dictator hating the US."
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:12 pm
old europe wrote:
old europe wrote:
Maybe, Gunga. I think the US have much bigger problems than the French hating Americans.


Ticomaya wrote:
That goes without saying. Deciding what I"m going to eat for lunch is a bigger problem than that.



Should have said: "A bigger problem than the French hating the US might be, for example, a North Korean dictator hating the US."


Laughing

Well, we've seen the North Koreans in battle ..... and we've seen (sort of) the French in <using my fingers to make "quotation marks"> "battle" ... so I would have to say your modified statement is correct.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:18 pm
Very Happy

You know, Tico, we had a long tradition of hating the French, too! On the other hand, imagine the French would take back the Statue of Liberty...

(I'll have to watch the "French Taunter" scene from Monty Python's "Holy Grail" again, I think....)
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:21 pm
(Maybe I should add that I had dinner with three lovely French girls today...)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:33 pm
Laughing

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1271062#1271062
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:37 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 11:06 pm
Old Europe- Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Rhineland was a part of Germany and that the French was the covering Army and so was Shirer aware. but that is completely irrelevant to the point of the testimony which showed that the French Army were gutless cowards which could have cut the small number of German forces to ribbons.

I am amazed that point is conveniently overlooked.

The French put up little or no resistance to the Germans. It is clear from testimony in Nuremberg that if the French had had any guts they could have routed the Germans and perhaps put a stop to their agressions.
Why don't you read the book,Old Europe?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 04:19 am
chiczaira wrote:
Old Europe- Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Rhineland was a part of Germany and that the French was the covering Army and so was Shirer aware. but that is completely irrelevant to the point of the testimony which showed that the French Army were gutless cowards which could have cut the small number of German forces to ribbons.

I am amazed that point is conveniently overlooked.

The French put up little or no resistance to the Germans. It is clear from testimony in Nuremberg that if the French had had any guts they could have routed the Germans and perhaps put a stop to their agressions.
Why don't you read the book,Old Europe?


Another thing I've not seen here is the problem of the French policy immediately after WW-I. I mean it would be one thing if the French had been instrumental in offering Germany generous terms after WW-I and THEN conducted themselves in a chickenhearted manner, but, far as I know, that's not the way the history books read. What you actually read is that the French were largely responsible for draconian policies towards the Germans after WW-I and THEN conducted themselves in a chickenhearted manner when faced with the inevitable consequences. Kind of like "Hey, let's see if we can start a good war for everybody but ourselves..."
0 Replies
 
chiczaira
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2005 12:10 am
Old Europe does not appear to be aware of sophisticated analyses of human behavior. Although it may appear to be counter-intuitive, the worst thing you can do is to help someone. They will never forgive you for it.

We pulled the French out of the mud twice in the Twentieth Century.
The effete Franks have always fancied themselves as so so culturally superior to the USA.

And there we were actually saving them twice in the twentieth century.

Apres moi., le deluge is true. The French have been drowning in Socialist offal since the middle of the Nineteenth Century.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2005 08:40 am
chiczaira wrote:
Old Europe- Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Rhineland was a part of Germany and that the French was the covering Army and so was Shirer aware. but that is completely irrelevant to the point of the testimony which showed that the French Army were gutless cowards which could have cut the small number of German forces to ribbons.

I am amazed that point is conveniently overlooked.


Not overlooked at all. I can give you a few more examples of what is not overlooked:

- Many people believed that since Versailles had created the states of Poland and Czechoslovakia on the basis of self-determination, it was unjust to deny the opportunity of Austrians and Sudetenlanders to join Germany if they so wished.

- Many people argued that German re-armament, the re-occupation of the Rhineland and the acquisition of the Saarland were merely examples of the Germans taking back what was rightfully theirs.

- King George V said that he would rather abdicate and stand in Trafalgar Square in central London, singing The Red Flag than allow his country go through another war like 1914-1918.

- Hitler had not taken any obviously non-German territory as of 1938, a war launched by the Allies at this stage would have been a war launched merely on the basis of suspicion, in which Britain would have been deeply divided. This could have been fatal if the war had gone badly for the Allies - as indeed happened in 1940.

It can, of course, be argued that a strong stand on the Rhineland issue might have caused a delay in Hitler's preparations for war. But I think it's very unlikely that it would have prevented a war. No more than Britain's appeasement politics, that is.
0 Replies
 
NobleCon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2005 12:26 am
Well, Sanctuary placed a reply around 15 April I believe, and though it was a tad equivocal, it hit the mark nonetheless.

"...that's how the 'game' of world-affairs is played."

Precisely. The "world" hated the Greeks when they were in the front, hated the Romans, hated the Eastern Empires and the Orient, hated the Turks, hated the Spanish, hated the British, and now, you guessed it: hate the Americans. But the world as a whole does not loathe the Americans, only those states that can not compete or will not join in on any "talks" with us. Of course, many States do hate the nature of our plays; at times, it does seem that we play with prison rules, no?

The game Sanctuary refers to is the game of world-affairs as "business," or "for profit." Americans, along with the British (and slowly with the Germans, Chinese, and South Americans), are becoming quite proficient in this game, and for good reasons: we are talking about MONEY! And what leader does not want more money for his nation, in the form of jobs, technology, infrastructure, and the rest? Perhaps even for his own pocket, if he can manage that. Even if one wished to maintain a purely environment-friendly nation with no nuclear energy and absolutely no CFCs and noxious gases would they have to deal with the Americans (and the Brits, the Chinese, and so on).
0 Replies
 
dragonite
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 09:31 am
Re: I don't hate America,i need some help
People should hate America we're selfish and unhelpful. When the Hutu's and the Tutsi's were having the massacre we just sat here and watched almost a million people get slashed and killed with machetes.
0 Replies
 
NobleCon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2005 09:54 pm
Re: I don't hate America,i need some help
dragonite wrote:
People should hate America we're selfish and unhelpful. When the Hutu's and the Tutsi's were having the massacre we just sat here and watched almost a million people get slashed and killed with machetes.


Pray tell, how should the USA have handled the affairs of the Hutu and Tutsi?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2005 10:50 pm
Re: I don't hate America,i need some help
dragonite wrote:
People should hate America we're selfish and unhelpful. When the Hutu's and the Tutsi's were having the massacre we just sat here and watched almost a million people get slashed and killed with machetes.


Looking for somebody to hate over Rwanda? Somehow or other I don't think it's the United States you're looking for. Check this out:

http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-1/498/498_08_Rwanda.shtml

Quote:

....Most tribal antagonisms in Africa go back only as far as the period of European colonization in the late 19th century, when the colonialists' use of divide-and-rule tactics to control their huge territories. Before colonialism, the Rwandan population consisted mainly of land cultivators, the Hutus, and cattle herders, the Tutsis.

There was a degree of Tutsi privilege, because cattle were the main form of marketable wealth, but Hutus and Tutsis had the same religion, language, food and art, and there was no systematic conflict between the two groups. In fact, since the key was possession of cattle, people could switch groups.

Everything changed under colonial rule. Germany controlled the area from 1890 and used a section of Tutsi chiefs to act in their interests. After the First World War, Belgium became the colonial power. The Belgians used racist pseudo-science to concoct ethnic and tribal myths that claimed the Tutsis and Hutus were fundamentally different.

Tutsis were elevated to a position of dominance. Identity cards were introduced which forced people to have a clear group identity, and the ability to switch groups ended. Belgium used the Tutsis to rule Rwanda for almost the whole colonial period, but in the 1950s, they switched sides and began favoring the majority Hutus....
0 Replies
 
 

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