1
   

I don't hate America,i need some help

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:33 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
They think we are fat, arrogent, wasteful, loud, obnoxious, meddling, money grubbing, resource hording pigs.

They're just jealous that we invented McDonalds.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:38 pm
Great post Ein. You're right on all 3 points.
0 Replies
 
coachryan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 03:29 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
There is a big difference between hating America and hating Americans.

Everyone hates Americans... even Americans hate Americans.

Look at the last election... If you were an American either hated the power hungry republican racist fundamentalists, or the liberal tree-hugging, anti-gun, anti-marriage "pinko commie" democrats.

The election and the follow-up showed that every American hates at least half of his countrymen. Throw in the overlap-- groups that everyone hates, and you probably hate a majority of Americans.

If you say you "love America" you are just saying that you love your little narrow point of view of America. If you are white middle class you like the white middle class view of America. If you are third generation latino American you love a very different America.

We all love ourselves. It's just the "others" we hate.


very insightfull Eb, even in this time of war we've managed to split ourselves into US vs Them from within. I wonder if this is what happened to the Romans... Confused

Opps! Does that comment places me in the "America Haters" catagory!?
I'm not a memberACLU or anything!!! Really!

Arrow (Rushes out to buy a "Support Our Troops" ribbon bumper sticker) Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 03:40 pm
F*ck America. It's a breeding ground for most of the world's corruption, corporate greed, and human fecal matter that deserves to be flushed down the f*cking toilet. There are scumbags everywhere you turn trying to sell you something, every politician has his hands in your pockets and his dick up your ass, and over 50% of the population is a bunch of retarded pinheaded morons who are too f*cking stupid to see what an a$shole goat-f*cking redneck George W. Bush is. And he's a murderer to boot.

And the fact that I can say all that **** without fear is why I love America.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 03:40 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
There is a big difference between hating America and hating Americans.

Everyone hates Americans... even Americans hate Americans.

Look at the last election... If you were an American either hated the power hungry republican racist fundamentalists, or the liberal tree-hugging, anti-gun, anti-marriage "pinko commie" democrats.

The election and the follow-up showed that every American hates at least half of his countrymen. Throw in the overlap-- groups that everyone hates, and you probably hate a majority of Americans.

If you say you "love America" you are just saying that you love your little narrow point of view of America. If you are white middle class you like the white middle class view of America. If you are third generation latino American you love a very different America.

We all love ourselves. It's just the "others" we hate.


We hate the French more though.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:23 pm
atookaian wrote:
F*ck America. It's a breeding ground for most of the world's corruption, corporate greed, and human fecal matter that deserves to be flushed down the f*cking toilet. There are scumbags everywhere you turn trying to sell you something, every politician has his hands in your pockets and his dick up your ass, and over 50% of the population is a bunch of retarded pinheaded morons who are too f*cking stupid to see what an a$shole goat-f*cking redneck George W. Bush is. And he's a murderer to boot.

And the fact that I can say all that **** without fear is why I love America.


You think that's funny, dirtwad!!!???? You are nothing but a bag of filth. I wish I could meet you in a dark alley so I could kick your stupid ass all over the place you commie bastard...SCUM!!
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:33 pm
oh-oh
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 10:41 pm
Must still be April Fools Day in the US. Laughing

Very funny, kicky!
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 11:38 pm
Einherjar:

Quote:
A diametrically opposed possition on Israel/Palestine, the US is very one sided in this conflict, and on the wrong side according to many europeans.


I guess this could be because we think Israel has a right to exist. You also have to remember that Israel didn't start this mess over 50 years ago; it was the Arab nations in the ME who wanted to destroy Israel and the same day it was founded. We also know that if the US didn't support Israel that Israel wouldn't have a single nation that would support it.

Can you name a single nation that would support Israel?

Quote:
A sense that the US is continually judging and condemning the rest of the world for not living up to standards that they themselves do not.


Please name these standards?

Quote:
When the US is accused of installing dictators and or propping them up, the charge is more ofthen than not hypocricy.


As apposed to the communist ones that the USSR supported? You guys seem to love the ones they helped and put in place, such as Castro and many of the other communist regimes still in place.

Quote:
An average person passing himself off as a saint and lecturing others with a holier than though attitude is ofthen more annoying than a complete **** who claims to be nothing else.


So you don't like what they have to say? It doesn't mean that they don't mean what they say and try to live by what they say.

Quote:
An impression that the US holds the international comunity in contempt, and or considers itself the proper arbiter of international affairs.


When the rest of the world wants help in the money department, we offer the help. Remember when those countries got hit with the Tsunami? Who was it that provided the airlift support? Who was berated for not providing enough money in the beginning and then turned around and ended up providing about the most money?

The point is that when we do things it isn't enough but we are almost always one of the first places people turn to when money is needed. When we try and do things that are in our best interest we suck.

Quote:
US opposition to international courts, and the insistance that US citizens not be subject to this courts rulings is one of many thing which reinforces this perception.


So sorry we are not willing to violate our Constitution to make you happy. If we passed a law saying we would release our citizens to the world court, it could be overturned as unconstitutional. We love our Constitution and wouldn't bypass it for any nation or nation state. I feel sorry that your country is willing to bypass its sovereignty for the sake of a bullshit court. By the way have they even found Milosavitch guilty yet? He has only been in their custody for over 5 years.

Quote:
More recently the Iraq war has also caused US standing in europe to slip.


Well we can't help it that Europe was in good standing with Saddam. I know France, Germany and Russia didn't want to put their oil and military arms contracts in jeopardy. We also can't help it that you want democracy but could careless that others don't.

Quote:
The charge here, wholly appart from the issue of the war itself, is that the US failed to abide by due process in rushing the war without allowing inspections to run their course.


As has been noted several times, 12 years isn't a rush to war. If it wasn't for the US push to get inspectors back into Iraq, they never would have gotten there in the first place and Saddam would still be in charge. If the US would have moved when we wanted to, we never know what would have been found. Did those documents ever turn up proving how Saddam disposed of his WMD's?

Quote:
That's pretty much it I think.


Yep I would agree.

Quote:
Oh, and disliking americans is also trendy in some parts of europe, kind of like american animosity for the french.


I don't have the French, just their cheese, wine and their stupid little tower.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 02:07 am
Baldimo wrote:
Einherjar:

Quote:
A diametrically opposed possition on Israel/Palestine, the US is very one sided in this conflict, and on the wrong side according to many europeans.


I guess this could be because we think Israel has a right to exist. You also have to remember that Israel didn't start this mess over 50 years ago; it was the Arab nations in the ME who wanted to destroy Israel and the same day it was founded. We also know that if the US didn't support Israel that Israel wouldn't have a single nation that would support it.

Can you name a single nation that would support Israel?


Plenty of nations would support Israels claim to the areas they controlled before 67. Very few nations support the Syrian claim to lebanon, and not a whole lot supported Iraqs claim to Kuwait. That's not much of an argument to support them.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
A sense that the US is continually judging and condemning the rest of the world for not living up to standards that they themselves do not.


Please name these standards?


Free trade, presumption of innocense for EVERYONE as well as limits on confinement without charges and not torturing people (no, not the prison, I'm talking about having the Syrians and Egyptians doing your interrogation) to name a few.

Pointing out that you are not alone in breaching these principles is besides the point, because the charge is hypocricy not the violations of principles themselves.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
When the US is accused of installing dictators and or propping them up, the charge is more ofthen than not hypocricy.


As apposed to the communist ones that the USSR supported? You guys seem to love the ones they helped and put in place, such as Castro and many of the other communist regimes still in place.


Yes the USSR was run by d#&¤wads, but they didn't lecture others about democracy did they. The charge leveled is one of hypocricy, not one of installing dictators per se.

Cuba also brings up double standards, what has Cuba done to warrant sanctions that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan has not?

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
An average person passing himself off as a saint and lecturing others with a holier than though attitude is ofthen more annoying than a complete **** who claims to be nothing else.


So you don't like what they have to say? It doesn't mean that they don't mean what they say and try to live by what they say.


No it doesn't, but it stil buggs people beyond words.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
An impression that the US holds the international comunity in contempt, and or considers itself the proper arbiter of international affairs.


When the rest of the world wants help in the money department, we offer the help. Remember when those countries got hit with the Tsunami? Who was it that provided the airlift support? Who was berated for not providing enough money in the beginning and then turned around and ended up providing about the most money?


Hmm, not most per capita if I remember correctly. Anyway, the effort put innto helping out the Indonesians were what one would expect from a wealthy western democracy with that amount of resources in the region. It is the apparent contradictions that capture peoples attention.

Baldimo wrote:
The point is that when we do things it isn't enough but we are almost always one of the first places people turn to when money is needed. When we try and do things that are in our best interest we suck.


Well, compared to other comparable nations such as Japan and many of the european ones you don't give all that much per capita. but then again you don't preach large donations either, so this is mostly trown in "in the spirit of hating the French". When someone such as yourself brings it up though, not accounting for population when measuring contributions, it does get on peoples nerves.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
US opposition to international courts, and the insistance that US citizens not be subject to this courts rulings is one of many thing which reinforces this perception.


So sorry we are not willing to violate our Constitution to make you happy. If we passed a law saying we would release our citizens to the world court, it could be overturned as unconstitutional. We love our Constitution and wouldn't bypass it for any nation or nation state. I feel sorry that your country is willing to bypass its sovereignty for the sake of a bullshit court. By the way have they even found Milosavitch guilty yet? He has only been in their custody for over 5 years.


There is also Kyoto and a number of other instances ofthen mentioned by those who have this discussion more ofthen than I. You just generally come off as uncooperative.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
More recently the Iraq war has also caused US standing in europe to slip.


Well we can't help it that Europe was in good standing with Saddam. I know France, Germany and Russia didn't want to put their oil and military arms contracts in jeopardy. We also can't help it that you want democracy but could careless that others don't.

Quote:
The charge here, wholly appart from the issue of the war itself, is that the US failed to abide by due process in rushing the war without allowing inspections to run their course.


As has been noted several times, 12 years isn't a rush to war. If it wasn't for the US push to get inspectors back into Iraq, they never would have gotten there in the first place and Saddam would still be in charge. If the US would have moved when we wanted to, we never know what would have been found. Did those documents ever turn up proving how Saddam disposed of his WMD's?


You weren't up and about lobbying for war for twelve years. The consensus seems to be that due proces would have called for you to intimidate Saddam to let the inspectors back in, and if Saddam wasn't cooperating to point this out. This would be followed by further inspections to establish that Saddam was obstructing, then some more while letting the facts sink inn with beurocracies around the world. A bit of whining about obstructions for show, then a bit more draging out of inspections for good measure. Finally you should hold a vote in the UN, making sure you at least had a majority of votes on your side. That would have bestowed at least a shimmer of legitimacy even if someone had vetoed. When you ignore international law you undermine that law, and takes us all one step beckwards towards anarchy among nations.

Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
That's pretty much it I think.


Yep I would agree.

Quote:
Oh, and disliking americans is also trendy in some parts of europe, kind of like american animosity for the french.


I don't have the French, just their cheese, wine and their stupid little tower.


McGentrix wrote:
We hate the French more though.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 10:35 am
Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
A sense that the US is continually judging and condemning the rest of the world for not living up to standards that they themselves do not.


Please name these standards?


Don't know whether those would exactly be standards, but...

- Thou shallst not develop WMD.
- Thou shallst not torture.
- Thou shallst not kill civilians.
- Thou shallst not abduct and imprison people without trial.
- Thou shallst not censor the press.
- Thou shallst not support ruthless dictators.

...

More would come to my mind if I bothered thinking about it for two seconds, but it doesn't matter anyway. The thing that offends people outside the US is the rumbling whenever somebody else doesn't comply.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 11:40 am
Well now. Comsider yourselves told.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 12:54 pm
Einherjar wrote:


An impression that the US holds the international comunity in contempt, and or considers itself the proper arbiter of international affairs.


I can't speak for all Americans. I know that I hold them in total contempt and for good reason. What has the "international community" done for the long suffering people of Iraq, North Korea, Darfur, Rwanda, "Zimbabwe", Cuba, or any of those kinds of places in the last 50 years? I mean, other than rape and pillage with UN uniforms on?
Quote:


US opposition to international courts, and the insistance that US citizens not be subject to this courts rulings is one of many thing which reinforces this perception.


You're no doubt talking about the so-called "Hague Invasion Act"...

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm

My advice to the Dutch: Don't go on guessing; try kidnapping an American soldier and putting him on trial for something, and see if it's real. The only thing I could think of more fun to watch than that would be for Russian special forces (spetznaz) to rescue Slobodan MIlosevic. That I'd pay a hundred dollars to watch, 200 if they could shoot the Hague to pieces in the process.

Milosevic, for those with short memories, is an innocent man being tried by a so-called International Criminal Tribunal in the Hague, Holland, presumably for attempting to deport (or ethnically cleanse) albanian islammists from a Serbian province for barbaric conduct over a protracted period of time:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/ddj/Kosovo/articles/Binder87NYT.htm

One assumes that the Dutch are practicing to try themselves for ethnic cleansing and genocide, since they themselves are now beginning to expell muslims from their own country:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/2/17502340-DA4E-4379-9982-AED6C77B315D.html

also for barbaric conduct over a protracted period of time:

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=1111&terms=

I mean, why not simply change the name of Holland to Hypocrisia or something like that?

Quote:

More recently the Iraq war has also caused US standing in europe to slip.


If that's true than Europeans truly are idiots since it's primarily their asses which have been saved. I'm talking about the three-way thing between Iraq, Libya, and North Korea which Muammar Khadaffi recently gave up on under intense American pressure, which would have ended up with nuclear-tipped IRBMs pointed at Europe. I mean, even if they ultimately meant to develop missiles to hit New York with, they'd have had to PRACTICE at shorter distances the same way you sight rifles in at progressively longer ranges and, in this instance, "shorter distances" translates into "Europe".

Quote:

The charge here, wholly appart from the issue of the war itself, is that the US failed to abide by due process in rushing the war without allowing inspections to run their course.


Right. While Europeans sit on their fat asses and watch, an American army is sitting there in the desert heat waiting for orders to commence an operation before it gets up to 120 degrees F and no operations are possible and we're supposed to give Hans Schlixx another six months to **** around and Saddam Hussein another six months to move every sort of illicit **** to Syria...

Quote:

Oh, and disliking americans is also trendy in some parts of europe, kind of like american animosity for the french.

[/quote]

The French?

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/world_war_2_photos/images/ww2_81.jpg

I'll tell you what I think is actually behind much of the European animosity towards America. For starters, the United States is less than 250 years old and yet, in that span, we've had to come over and rescue Europe from Barbary pirates, from one lunatic war caused by out of control nationalism and arms races, from naziism, fascism, communism, and now islammofascism and, in that same time, Europeans haven't had to come over here to rescue us from Christianity, democracy, or free-market capitalism once.

And so there's a perception that something is out of balance somehow or other. I mean, that's aside from our taking Europe's entire runoff population over most of that 250 year period and the perception that the descendants of those people who europeans viewed as losers are doing better in life than Europeans are doing now.

And then you've got the thing about Israel and Islam. You only have to look at a map to see how ludicrous that one is. You have this gigantic swath of territory from the wall of China to the west coast of Africa and tens of degrees of lattitude up and down called the Islammic world and then a tiny sliver of land called Israel which you have to know precisely where to look for on the map to find, and muslims have been doing an unrelenting crybaby act over that tiny sliver for the last 60 years, as if there were nowhere else for any unhappy hard-core muslims in the tiny sliver to go.

Europe, meanwhile, having invited muslims in as servants without bothering to Christianize or otherwise civilize them in the process and having forgotten how to have children during the same stretch of time, is now faced with the very real prospect of Europe being under sharia law 30 years from now and is apparently getting ready for that day by renewing its committment to antisemitism.

I mean, what is there not to hold in contempt?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 01:01 pm
Gunga,

I always thought you would consider sharia law a good thing.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 01:10 pm
Gunga, I take it you are a native American to be so proud of America? Or has your family at one point been part of "Europe's entire runoff population"? You're at least not a muslim, unless you are a "Christianized or otherwise civilized" one.

Nevertheless, your post is a very good example why people do not like America. There's almost nobody outside the US you haven't attacked verbally, maybe with the exemption of Israel.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 01:13 pm
Oh, Gunga: have you ever been outside the United States?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 03:25 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Gunga,

I always thought you would consider sharia law a good thing.


For people I don't like maybe. Not for me....
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 05:02 pm
Let's see Gunga

Laws based on religion.
No acceptance of homosexuality.
Harsh punishment for drug crimes.
Quick executions that don't drag on with legal proces.

Isn't this what you believe in?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 05:06 pm
Are you talking about China or the USA, eb? Cause it depends, you know...

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Apr, 2005 05:51 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Let's see Gunga

Laws based on religion.
No acceptance of homosexuality.
Harsh punishment for drug crimes.
Quick executions that don't drag on with legal proces.

Isn't this what you believe in?


Not really.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/cartoon/mrdid.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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