Why We Fought

old europe wrote:

Lash wrote:
Guantanamo was a good idea. We were housing and questioning terrorists. They don't deserve the rights American citizens have. They were attacking American citizens, with a goal of overthrowing our government.

Well, let's assume there's a war. Generally, in a war, one side attacks the other side, maybe wants to overthrow their government.

Because of this, you are saying, the side being attacked has the right to torture their POWs?

Old Europe

If you have an open mind this excerpt might clear the murky waters for you:

Moreover, undertaking attacks in civilian dress may also deprive the perpetrators of their status as lawful combatants. One of the critical prerequisites for that status, recognized under customary international law, the 1907 Hague Regulations, and the 1949 Geneva Conventions, is the wearing of a uniform, or some other badge or device visible at a distance, that clearly distinguishes a combatant from the surrounding civilian population. Individuals who engage in hostilities wearing civilian clothing are unlawful combatants, they need not be accorded the rights and privileges of POWs under the Geneva Conventions (although they still must be treated humanely), and can be subject to prosecution and punishment for their hostile actions - even if they have violated no other provisions of the laws of war.

Source:
http://www.inthenationalinterest.com/Articles/Vol2Issue12/vol2issue12rivkincaseypfv.html

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:Panzade

Got your PM...not allowed to reply yet.
But thanks.
Hope it comes out. :wink:

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joefromchicago wrote:

woiyo wrote:
Since we have gone to war post 9-11, let's look at some of the tings that have happened
1. Afganistan - Taliban regime out...Democraticlly elected officials in.
2. Iraq - Saddam out, democraticlly elected officials in and going forward.
3. Libya - Giving up nukes
4. Lebenon- Kicking out Syria under way
5. Isreal/Palistine-Some progress
6. Egypt- Looking at real elections

The middle East is changing and our security is improved.

Let's look at a few other things that have happened during that span:
1. Massachusetts supreme court rules in favor of gay marriage
2. Paul Martin succeeds Jean Chretien as Canadian prime minister
3. Florida hit by three hurricanes in one season
4. Two wild-card teams win the world series
5. Bob Hope and Marlon Brando died

Folks, let this be a lesson: correlation and causation are your friends. When you craft your arguments, don't forget your friends.

One more thing happened. I got laid...more than once! Thank god for George W. Bush!!!

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Good point, rayban1. Another good point is that ununiformed armed individuals not operatin' within an organized, responsible command structure, taken while in the act of conductin' hostile activity, are perfectly entitled to be considered spys, saboteurs, deserters, and/or looters, subject to summary execution upon capture.

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Why, then, have a detention facility on Cuban soil?

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A misperception, OE - the US Military Reservation at Guantanamo is sovereign US territory which happens to be contiguous to and bordered by Cuban soil.

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So why is it located there at all? Is it to bypass American law somehow?
If so, why?

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U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay was established in 1898, when the U.S. obtained control of Cuba from Spain at the end of the Spanish-American War, following the 1898 invasion of Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. government obtained a perpetual lease that began on February 23, 1903 from the newly independent Cuban state. The terms hold that the U.S., for the purposes of operating coaling and naval stations, has "complete jurisdiction and control" of the area, while the Republic of Cuba is recognized to retain ultimate sovereignty. A 1934 treaty reaffirming the lease granted Cuba and her trading partners free access through the bay, modified the lease payment from $2,000 in gold coins per year, to the 1934 equivalent value of $4,085 U.S. Treasury Dollars, and added a requirement that termination of the lease requires the consent of both the U.S. and Cuba governments, or the abandonment of the base property by the U.S. With over 3,000 U.S. troops, "Gitmo" is the only U.S. base in operation on Communist soil, as of 2005.

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Obviously, Ellpus:

"The peculiar legal status of Guantanamo Bay was a factor in the choice of Guantanamo as a detention center. Because sovereignty of Guantanamo Bay ultimately resides with Cuba, the U.S. government argued unsuccessfully that people detained at Guantanamo were legally outside of the U.S. and did not have the Constitutional rights that they would have if they were held on U.S. territory (see Cuban American Bar Ass'n, Inc. v. Christopher, 43 F.3d 1412 (11th Cir. 1995)). In 2004, the Supreme Court rejected this argument in the case Rasul v. Bush with the majority decision and ruled that prisoners in Guantanamo have access to American courts, citing the fact that the U.S. has exclusive control over Guantanamo Bay."

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same url

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Quote:

Camp Delta prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, on the south-eastern tip of Cuba, is surrounded by fine white sand and and a turquoise Caribbean sea. Despite the natural beauty of its surroundings the camp has become a monument to the US war on terror after the September 11 attacks, with up to 680 people locked up without charge, without access to a lawyer, and not knowing the evidence against them.

Among those detained were nine British nationals, captured in Afghanistan or Pakistan by the US or its allies, who were wheeled in on trolleys, blindfolded and manacled, wearing orange jumpsuits.

The Britons were sometimes locked up for 24 hours a day, seeing nothing apart from the cramped cells in which they were kept, a small exercise yard and the American interrogators who questioned them without any legal restriction.

They were classed by the US authorities as illegal enemy combatants, and Washington argued they were thus not entitled to the protection of international law.

The US case was that they were hardened terrorists linked to violence. But some in the US military admitted that the detainees were actually being held for any information they might have about suspected terrorists.

Their families in Britain have feared for the mental health of the nine, and without any hard news, have feared that they have been tortured. The only contact they have is occasional letters which are censored by the US.

Outrage over Guantanamo Bay gradually became an embarrassing political problem for Tony Blair, with MPs from all parties condemning the US for a regime that broke international laws. Even some in the Bush administration admitted that the issue was damaging America's standing abroad.

More

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old europe wrote:

Lash wrote:
Guantanamo was a good idea. We were housing and questioning terrorists. They don't deserve the rights American citizens have. They were attacking American citizens, with a goal of overthrowing our government.

Well, let's assume there's a war. Generally, in a war, one side attacks the other side, maybe wants to overthrow their government.

Because of this, you are saying, the side being attacked has the right to torture their POWs?

Good grief.

Gitmo is not synonymous with torture. There is a wide gulf between full on rights of an American citizen, and torture. From my understanding--and I'd appreciate correction if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that detention in Gitmo prevents the detainees from using legal protections under OUR law--the law they hate so much. Why should any of them have access to the privileges of our pro-criminal court system? They don't lose the right to humane treatment--and whether or not they get it--I don't know--but, they don't deserve the right to sue this country in our courts.

I don't approve of torture, unless in extreme, rare circumstances--though I know it is part and parcel of war.

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It also denies them the right to proper treatment under international human rights treaties and geneva Convention - just as a starter.

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Yes. I remember the issues raised by Gonzales in the note I read.

Have you read the rights under the Geneva Convention? All of them? I'm sure you would find a few of them utterly ridiculous.

They don't qualify for the GC rights, at any rate.

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That is the problem, once you begin to abrogate hard-won and fought for "rights". Whom can we begin to disqualify? For what? These alleged terrorists? Those damned Zionists? These people over here, where no-one is watching? Those prisoners whose heads we can saw off for the greater glory of god and our cause?

Thing is, there are no "rights" - there are codes of conduct and civilised restraints and the thinnest fabric of decency, holed and unravelled wherever we look.

In my view, when once we in countries who fought hard to make these things "rights" act to pick apart the fabric of what we say we believe in, then we are soon unclothed ourselves. Whether we be Americans running Guantanamo, or Australians running Baxter, or Iraqis killing prisoners.

Sorry to sound portentous -

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Quote:

the law they hate so much.

<shakes head>

Terrorists don't hate our laws. Don't fall into the trap of oversimplifying your enemy. They hate our policies and our meddling in their countries.

They don't 'hate our freedom' or any crap like that....

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

<shakes head>

Terrorists don't hate our laws. Don't fall into the trap of oversimplifying your enemy. They hate our policies and our meddling in their countries.

They don't 'hate our freedom' or any crap like that....

Cycloptichorn

How the hell do you know this??? Are you clairvoyant??

Odd isn't is that the Islamist treeorists have specifically cited our secularism, freedom, and rejection of the Sharia tyranny they would impose on the world in their condemnations of us.

It is important to think and get your facts right before you speak.

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Need I point you any farther than OBL himself, George?

Quote:

Full transcript of bin Ladin's speech

Monday 01 November 2004, 16:01 Makka Time, 13:01 GMT

Bin Ladin directed his message at the American people

Following is the full English transcript of Usama bin Ladin's speech in a videotape sent to Aljazeera. In the interests of authenticity, the content of the transcript, which appeared as subtitles at the foot of the screen, has been left unedited.

Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:

Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.

Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.

If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.

No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.

But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.

So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

So, what is OBL saying? That Bush has been lying for years. That they don't hate freedom. That his motivations for 9/11 were brought on by American support of Israel, i.e., American policies.

Quote:

At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.

So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

Sure seems like a lot of other stuff besides 'hating freedom.'

You people need to wake up!

Cycloptichorn

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Sun, Oct. 7th, 2001

Quote:

Osama Bin Laden has issued a strongly-worded warning to the United States in a recorded statement broadcast on al-Jazeera television. Below is the full text of his statement.
Praise be to God and we beseech Him for help and forgiveness.

We seek refuge with the Lord of our bad and evildoing. He whom God guides is rightly guided but he whom God leaves to stray, for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the right way.

I witness that there is no God but God and Mohammed is His slave and Prophet.

What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years

God Almighty hit the United States at its most vulnerable spot. He destroyed its greatest buildings.

Praise be to God.

Here is the United States. It was filled with terror from its north to its south and from its east to its west.

Praise be to God.

What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years.

Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than 80 years.

Its sons are being killed, its blood is being shed, its holy places are being attacked, and it is not being ruled according to what God has decreed.

Despite this, nobody cares.

When Almighty God rendered successful a convoy of Muslims, the vanguards of Islam, He allowed them to destroy the United States.

But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims

I ask God Almighty to elevate their status and grant them Paradise. He is the one who is capable to do so.

When these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.

One million Iraqi children have thus far died in Iraq although they did not do anything wrong.

Despite this, we heard no denunciation by anyone in the world or a fatwa by the rulers' ulema [body of Muslim scholars].

Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles also enter to wreak havoc in Palestine, in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala, and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.

They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.
May God mete them the punishment they deserve

But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims.

The least that one can describe these people is that they are morally depraved.

They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.

May God mete them the punishment they deserve.

I say that the matter is clear and explicit.

In the aftermath of this event and now that senior US officials have spoken, beginning with Bush, the head of the world's infidels, and whoever supports him, every Muslim should rush to defend his religion.

They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism

They came out in arrogance with their men and horses and instigated even those countries that belong to Islam against us.

They came out to fight this group of people who declared their faith in God and refused to abandon their religion.

They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism.

Hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, were killed in the farthest point on earth in Japan.

[For them] this is not a crime, but rather a debatable issue.

They bombed Iraq and considered that a debatable issue.

These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us

But when a dozen people of them were killed in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed and all hypocrite ones stood behind the head of the world's infidelity - behind the Hubal [an idol worshipped by pagans before the advent of Islam] of the age - namely, America and its supporters.

These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us.

neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed

The winds of faith and change have blown to remove falsehood from the [Arabian] peninsula of Prophet Mohammed, may God's prayers be upon him.

As for the United States, I tell it and its people these few words: I swear by Almighty God who raised the heavens without pillars that neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed, may God's peace and blessing be upon him.

God is great and glory to Islam.

May God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.

Show me where he states how much he hates our freedom. All it seems to me is that he hates our policies.

Cycloptichorn

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Bin Laden's Letter to America--Where he says he hates our freedom, and lots of other good stuff...

Your bud, Binny says lots of ****. I, for one, don't take his word for anything, but that's just me.
---------------
Excerpt from Bin Laden Letter--

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
That is the biggest sack of **** I have ever seen.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

BOOYAH!

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

That towelhead **** talks about Benjamin Franklin...

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

Well, some of us wanted to hang him and put him on fire, but our damn American laws...

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

Yeah. Killing them if some horny towelhead looks at them---that's women's lib.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

Are you getting his jist, here?
(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

That sonofabitch is such a friggin' bigot.
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What they hate is our freedom. I know it sounds simplistic, but it is also true.

The wealthy and the cleric class in the ME has one thing going for them. The hatred that their people have for us. Just like Hitler used the Jews as his scapegoat for the misery index there--Bin Laden, the Saudi Royals and the clerics have ...the Jews, of course, and us.

Our modernity is seeping over there through the internet. It looks good. Your average guy in the street is starting to see things he likes and wants, and it ain't a friggin camel.

Modernity will be the death of fundamentalist Islam. They know it.

Why is it that liberal types preach from the rafters that education will change bigotry. Education will improve this social ill, or that one. But, you tell them how it will impact this problem, and they throw their hands over their ears.

They have kept the masses in the Dark Ages over there, incredibly successfully, until now. With the internet, you can't keep the 21st century out of the ME anymore. They see radical Islam slipping away. With their power.

Yes. They do hate our freedoms, as Bin Laden says himself.

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I recomment you read the material you have posted and THINK while you do so. The gulf between this material and your evident conclusion is wider than I care to bridge.

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