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Does Bush's religious faith inappropriately dictatate policy

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 09:51 am
Snood

You and I are old friends now, and hopefully you understand that I (like the others here) have considerable respect for you regardless of any faith position you may hold. For most of us, I'd wager, that aspect would be as unimportant as your hair color (red, I understand).

In our culture, Christian faith began to be questioned (and attacked) in something of a systematic way as part of the 'Enlightenment Project'. Then, as now, it was Christianity which was the main target simply because Christianity was THE faith (in numbers and influence) of the Western World. This attempt at a rational, empirical understanding of things, was and is intimately in opposition to anything like 'received truth' in a scripture, and is likewise at odds with the previous assumption that the priesthood had some unique pipeline to truth and reality which trumped other sorts of truth claims. The equation of Christian faith = superstition is quite old now.

But you know all this. And also that the rationale of the separation of church and state was in part that both liberty AND truth would neither be well served through dogmatism, but that vigorous questioning of assumptions would serve us best. So, I think you best steel yourself to such oppositional debate.

I do agree with Frank and Tartarin that religious notions - where they exist as part of the public discourse and seek to influence community policy - ought not to be held to any different standard than political notions.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 09:58 am
Oh...and I ought to have added that the variety of religious faith and religious experience in the world (not to mention, within Christianity) is far richer and more valuable than the version insisted upon by the fundamentalist crowd (recognizing some variety even here).
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 10:02 am
maxsdadeo wrote:
But only if frank stops saying I look like a girl.


In the interests of playing well with others, I will comply with your request, Max.

I hope you will refrain from comments that allege I wear "panties" which is an undergarment we men do not wear, right, Max?!

You may, of course, refer to my Fruit of the Looms at any time. The are bought, paid for, and clean.
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 10:05 am
FrankApisa- I am learning mouch more than I ever wanted to know, about your underwear! Laughing
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 10:08 am
Tartarin wrote:
Listen, I agree in large part with Frank Apisa, but don't want to see Snood dissed about something he feels strongly about.



First, thanks for the agreement -- and for your advocacy of things I consider important to the Republic.

There is no way I intend anything I say as a "diss" of Snood -- or anyone else. I think the things I argue are important -- and I tend to argue with a great deal of passion.

IF some of the things I've said truly offend others -- it is accidental and not intentional. But as I have mentioned several times here in this thread -- there truly is no other way to say what I have to say about this issue.

I am certainly willing to discuss what I have to say -- but none of the people on the other side of the issue ever want to discuss it -- they simply want to say that it is innapropriate to have the feelings about the issue that I have.

They are wrong! I have a right to those opinions -- and I have a right to express them. I'd really love to discuss them -- if anyone wants to do so, but I will not be silenced simply because my take on these things bother others.

All said with as much respect for other's opinions, of course.
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 11:49 am
A NATIONAL DAY OF SUBMISSION AND WHAT????

<looking back>

A national day of submission and humility? Over my dead body. How submissive and humble is it to coerce confessions of faith from the traumatized and weary? And how profitable? GW can kiss my ass.

There having said that in as unhumble a way as possible, I humbly submit to you all that Tartarin, Blatham and others are right. We need to work together and get behind a vigorous effort to elect GW et al out of the White House, and do it now.

My God (what ever that image means to me) I cannot believe the hubris of this administration. I was worried about GW. Depressed for weeks after the fiasco we called an election. But I must confess (humbly) that I never dreamed they would go this far. Although, now that I think about it. I don't know why not. Actually, I think I believed the American people wouldn't stand for it. I guess we'll see.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 12:18 pm
Lola wrote:
A NATIONAL DAY OF SUBMISSION AND WHAT????

<looking back>

A national day of submission and humility? Over my dead body. How submissive and humble is it to coerce confessions of faith from the traumatized and weary? And how profitable? GW can kiss my ass.




Yo, Lola, if had known that was the punishment, I'da suggested a day of submission and humility myself.



Why should Dubya be PUNISHED that way for being a schlump?



Tell ya what, I'll kiss your ass and take care of almost any other kinky ideas you might have -- and the together we can tell Dubya to go fork himself.



Mind you, that was "fork" and not the other word starting with "f" and ending with "k." And it involves using a pitchfork -- preferably a well used one -- in what could be considered an "anatomically inappropriate" way.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 12:27 pm
Laughing, Frank. Very funny.

Actually I was going to say he could ******* kiss my ass, but decided it wasn't very ladylike. I prefer to submit with class.
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Tartarin
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 01:11 pm
Quote:
There is no way I intend anything I say as a "diss" of Snood -- or anyone else. I think the things I argue are important -- and I tend to argue with a great deal of passion.


Me too Frank. Nor was my dissing remark meant for you but rather a plea to all (self included) for hard-hitting discussion about ideas, not other contributors.

As for language, I go with Lola, basically. I'd just add: "Up yer fundament, Bush, Jr."
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 01:15 pm
Please keep it clean, guys. Thanks!
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 01:18 pm
Humility is a virtue only when you have no other.
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 01:44 pm
This seems a fair assumption, Dys. Do you make these things up yourself? Or are you plagiarizing? Laughing

Humility is a virtue only if it's not regulated humility. And submission is never a virtue except for purposes of fun. But generally speaking, for my taste, and artistic sensibility, a little humility and submission goes a long way.

And as for cleanliness. This can also be taken too far. A good thing, abused can lead to boils on the feet and hands.

Sorry, Phoenix, a little poetic license.............I thought it was called for.
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snood
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 02:32 pm
Rolling Eyes
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 06:01 pm
Quote:
Evangelical charities with an overt hostility to Islam are preparing to distribute food, water, medicine and building materials in Iraq, all in the name of Jesus.

One of the charities, Samaritan's Purse, is run by Franklin Graham, the son of the evangelist Billy Graham, who declared after the 11 September attacks that Islam was "a very evil and wicked religion". Another is the Southern Baptist Convention, whose former president once described the Prophet Mohamed as "a demon-possessed paedophile". About 800 of SBC's volunteers are reported to be on their way to Iraq to deliver food packages labelled with a verse from St John's Gospel, in Arabic, saying that "grace and truth were realised through Jesus Christ".

Such insensitivity is viewed by some as playing into the hands of those to whom the "war on terrorism" is a religious crusade. But what really riles Muslim groups all over the world is that these activities are overtly supported by the Bush administration. Graham, a long-standing friend of the President, was invited to participate in this year's Good Friday prayer service at the Pentagon, angering many in the Defence Department. Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the invitation "sends entirely the wrong message to the Muslim and Arab world ... This kind of incident can undo any kind of bridges built by a hundred public affairs officers at the Pentagon."

Graham has a record of hostility to Islam and unabashed proselytising, even where it is illegal. After the 1991 Gulf War, he infuriated Norman Schwarzkopf, the commander of Operation Desert Storm, by shipping tens of thousands of Arabic-language New Testaments to Saudi Arabia in defiance of Saudi law and the US-Saudi military alliance.

In his recent book, he says that Christianity and Islam are "as different as lightness and darkness" and that the two religions are destined to fight each other until the second coming of Christ, which he says is imminent. During a book tour last year, he said Islam posed "a greater threat than anyone's willing to speak". He has toned down the rhetoric recently to pacify his critics but few believe him when he says "we don't have to preach to be a Christian relief organisation".

Samaritan's Purse has worked in many countries, including Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan, Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan. Such gusto has won him many friends in the Republican Party, including Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, who has joined him on missions in Sudan. And he is a popular figure on the fundamentalist right; an important Bush constituency that loves the idea of good versus evil and a president ordained by God to lead America in tough times.

That is also why the Iraqis oppose his presence. As Michelle Cottle writes in New Republic : "At this point, Graham's ugly disquisitions on the nature of Islam have made him so radioactive that, even if he doesn't utter one word about Jesus while in Iraq, his mere presence in the region could be considered a provocation."


Independent.co.uk
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 06:10 pm
PDiddie- Bad move on the Administration's part. I would keep Graham as far away from the Iraqis as possible. I think that whatever good that he thinks that he might be doing will be far outweighed by the hostility that his presence will provoke.

Good grief, Charlie Brown. The Muslim's railed ( and probably appropriately so) when Bush used the word "crusade" in one of his speeches. Opened up a centuries' old would that has never really healed. Now this joker is going to Iraq................Not good!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 06:44 pm
Next time a candidate tells us he's a christian, he automatically loses my vote. Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Arrow Idea c.i.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 06:51 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Next time a candidate tells us he's a christian, he automatically loses my vote. Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Arrow Idea c.i.


Even if he just happens to get asked a random question - if he's not trying to cram it down your throat?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 07:04 pm
snood- I don't think that a candidate's religious beliefs need to be discussed. If he were pressed by a reporter, I certainly would not hold it against him. If he made an issue of his religious preference as a Christian as a means of making "points" with a segment of the voting population, I would perceive it as a red flag, and would agree with c.i.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 07:20 pm
Fair question, snood. I agree with Phoenix. c.i.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2003 07:35 pm
Quote:
As he gained political power, Bush came to believe in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, recalls that Bush once said, "I believe God wants me to be president." After the World Trade Center attacks, according to Time magazine, the president spoke of "being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment."


Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Religious insanity is the cause of most wars.

I wish we could get past the silly superstitions of a thousand years ago.

If there was a God, He wouldn't want us to remain mentally unevolved, would He?
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