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courtroom killing

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 12:59 pm
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/LAW/03/12/atlanta.shooting/top.nichols.cu.jpg

He's a large man! He's approximately the same height and weight as my man. I know for a fact that someone that size could overpower me in an instant . . . and it wouldn't matter if I had a gun in my holster. I'd be overpowered before I even had a chance to reach for my weapon. The female deputy was probably properly trained in law enforcement restraint techniques, yet she was in no better position than I would have been in that situation given the size of that man.

Given the government's knowledge that this man was an extremely dangerous offender who undoubtedly was planning to flee from justice (as evidenced by two shanks found in his shoes the preceding day), did the government have an affirmative duty to protect the safety and security of the occupants of the courthouse and the public at large from this man? Given the knowledge they had BEFORE this murder spree happened, could they have reasonably believed that one armed guard was sufficient to escort this man to the courtroom?

In many cases, hindsight is an exact science . . . but foresight (foreseeability) was not totally lacking in this matter. Do you think the families of the victims should be allowed to sue the government for failure to protect their loved ones from a substantial risk of harm?

A similar question is before the United States Supreme Court. See
Affirmative Duty to Protect?
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 01:24 pm
Bill, I've decided not to argue point by point against what you've said, because it's pointless. I'll just end up writing some more derogatory **** about what I perceive to be your idiotic rantings, and then you'll come back and insult me again for what you perceive to be mine. Normally I don't mind, but today I just don't feel like playing this game.

Having said that, let me get one last shot in. Smile

Just because you sat inside like a mental patient drooling over the coverage all day, and I only read a couple stories about it, doesn't give you a monopoly on the facts. Nobody knows exactly what happened in those moments when he overpowered the deputy except the prick who shot her.

Now I will leave you to give your sermon to the rest of the people on this thread. Go get 'em tiger.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 01:39 pm
Well, kicky. I can see that you're not just another pretty face.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 01:44 pm
Rolling Eyes If that means you're done denying the obvious, insulting without purpose and claiming freely discussed policies don't exist, good. One need not know precisely how this woman was overpowered this time to recognize the obvious folly in the policy that put her there in the first place.
0 Replies
 
bobsmythhawk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 09:55 pm
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2005 11:39 pm
So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?

What I'm reading/hearing tonight suggests it doesn't much matter what one individual was escorting Nichols. Unshackled, with only one escort, he was capable of quite a bit. Sure hope they rethink the policies on this sort of thing in that jurisdiction.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 12:32 am
murder spree
ehBeth wrote:
So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?


From the AP article posted above:

Quote:
Officials did not say what measures were taken to beef up security, but said deputy Cynthia Hall was alone when she escorted Nichols to his retrial on rape and other charges Friday. Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury.

"Anytime security has been asked for, we have provided it," Fulton County Sheriff Myron Freeman told reporters Saturday.


What does the Sheriff ordinarily do? Does he allow the dangerous offender to escort himself to the courtroom? Apparently the Sheriff responded to the request for extra security by putting "grandma" on the job:

Quote:
Nichols, 33, is accused of overpowering a court deputy Friday, a grandmother in her 50s, taking her gun and fatally shooting three people including the judge in his rape case.


Source

The only person Nichols needed to overpower was the grandmother/deputy who was escorting him to the courtroom. The Sheriff provided Nichols with his first victim from whom he could steal a deadly weapon. Thereafter, Nichols didn't need to rely on his size to overpower anyone . . . he just used the gun to assault and kill . . . first the grandmother / deputy (he shot her in the head), then he shot and killed the judge & the court reporter, then he shot and killed another deputy, then he pistol whipped a driver, then he shot and killed an federal officer . . . .

After Nichols overpowered the first deputy and stole her weapon, the size of the victims that he shot and killed simply becomes irrelevant.

From now on when the Sheriff receives requests for extra security, I hope the Sheriff will send more than one deputy (a grandmother) to escort a dangerous offender down public corridors.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 01:49 am
And he managed to find time to top another person!

Quote:
He is also a suspect in the shooting death Saturday of David Wilhelm, assistant special agent in charge for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the FBI said.

Before his arrest last summer, Nichols was a computer technician for UPS, Hazen said. Nichols, an athlete who played football in college, liked to played basketball with friends, the attorney said.

"By all accounts, he was a likeable guy," said Hazen, who described Nichols as intelligent and articulate.

One of Nichols' college teammates had a differing opinion.

Nick Pergine, who played football with Nichols at Kutztown University, told The Associated Press that Nichols' physical stature and martial arts skills earned him a reputation.

"He was a bad dude," Pergine told the AP. "You didn't mess with him."



Out and out criminal psychopath.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 02:22 am
Hmmm - sounds very much as though he should have been escorted by a couple of guards, at least.

Not sure that whether someone has grandkids is a factor! I have clients who are grandparents at forty - or younger. Really tough, mean ones too.

I would have thought that having someone walking a bit behind him, as well as beside him, would have been a minimal precaution - in case he tried the very thing he managed to do.

I don't see quite why such sturm and drang has erupted on this thread about the whole thing re male/female.

Shrugs...

I have seen huge men overpowered by prisoners in front of me very eyeses.

Luckily, there was one more than one officer there at the time.....

Which would seem to be the real point.

One wonders if this charming psychopath had managed to make the prison folk think he was all nice and settled? Surely not - they are used to them.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:03 am
Er - those of you who have been avidly following this story: DID he get the female deputy's gun?

This is from today's New York Times article:

"The police say that Mr. Nichols went into the judge's chambers, where he overpowered a second deputy, handcuffing him and taking his gun. At the request of lawyers and Judge Rowland W. Barnes, security in the courtroom had already been increased after Mr. Nichols was caught with the homemade knives."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/national/13atlanta.html?th

That sounds like he got his gun from the second, male, deputy? Or did he get two guns?

Edit: Just read another story - I see he did get both weapons.

My goodness! This woman was smart and quick!

"Driving south, past the state Capitol and away from the courthouse, Mr. Nichols pulled the tow truck into another parking garage and hijacked a silver Mercury Sable owned by Almeta Kilgo, who works for Atlanta's major daily newspaper, The Journal-Constitution. She said he demanded that she get into the trunk of the car, but she refused and ran."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/national/13shoot.html

The only time I have ever had guns pulled on me, it was by two very scared police officers. I didn't do what THEY said, either - but they were police - I was pretty sure they would not shoot without good reason. Wow.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:12 am
ehBeth wrote:
So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?
Shocked Rolling Eyes You mean after he had a gun? Rolling Eyes (No single emoticon could aptly demonstrate my reaction to such an absurd question Rolling Eyes)

ehBeth wrote:
What I'm reading/hearing tonight suggests it doesn't much matter what one individual was escorting Nichols. Unshackled, with only one escort, he was capable of quite a bit. Sure hope they rethink the policies on this sort of thing in that jurisdiction.
Even if Nichols were the toughest guy around; there are thousands of other people escorted under the same idiotic policy. Does anyone doubt that many of them could easily take a "small framed" woman without sweating, but who wouldn't dream of trying an outsized healthy man?

The PC/clique mentality that's required to deny physical prowess being a factor in a physical fight would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. The truly sad part is; that very misguided attitude will likely hinder the necessary changes in policy and this will come up again. Sad
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 03:22 am
Actually Deb, I think it's 3 guns after his last victim. This is one of those people that should make everyone consider the death penalty. He is clearly ready willing and able to kill again. I, for one, am disappointed he survived his capture. That only means he may have the opportunity to kill again. NO good can possibly come of it.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 04:59 am
dlowan wrote:
This is from today's New York Times article . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/national/13atlanta.html?th


Thanks for the link . . . it gives more detail than the other articles I have read.

Quote:
Even with the capture of Mr. Nichols, questions persisted about why he was able to deprive not one, but two sheriff's deputies of their guns in the Fulton County Courthouse, especially after being caught earlier in the week with homemade knives in his shoes.

Sheriff Myron Freeman said he would appoint a task force to review safety procedures in the courthouse. The sheriff, who repeatedly reminded reporters that he had been in office for just two months, said he could not speak about the standard procedures for escorting prisoners in the courthouse and could not say what kind of holster had been issued to the deputy who had been escorting Mr. Nichols, Cynthia Hall.

Deputy Hall, 51, described as about 5 feet tall, was apparently alone with Mr. Nichols, a former college football player who is 6-foot-1 and weighs 210 pounds. She removed his handcuffs so he could change clothes before entering the courtroom.

As Mr. Nichols was dressing, he attacked Deputy Hall, leaving her in critical condition with a head wound and facial fractures, investigators said. She was still in critical condition today, a spokesman for the Sheriff's Department said.

The police say that Mr. Nichols went into the judge's chambers, where he overpowered a second deputy, handcuffing him and taking his gun. At the request of lawyers and Judge Rowland W. Barnes, security in the courtroom had already been increased after Mr. Nichols was caught with the homemade knives.

Richard L. Robbins, a lawyer who was in Judge Barnes's court at the time, said Mr. Nichols entered from behind the bench. "He had this look in his eyes where he was completely calm," Mr. Robbins said. "He looked like he was going to kill everybody and enjoy it. I heard a loud bang and I thought something fell over, and I saw the judge slump over and realized he had been shot. This guy was on his side, he never saw it coming. The way he looked, he was gone before he hit the floor. So the only consolation, if there is one, is I don't think he ever knew it happened."


The Sheriff didn't know the standard procedures for escorting [or supervising] prisoners . . . I guess two months wasn't long enough for him to learn one of the most vital components of his job. . . .
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:05 am
Ceili wrote:
The policy was wrong, not because a women was his escort but because she was alone.

No, the policy was wrong because it allowed the deputy to carry a gun.

I've been in quite a few courtrooms in my professional career, and I can't recall seeing a single bailiff or deputy carrying any kind of weapon. There's a good reason for that: if one goes to the trouble of creating a weapon-free zone (such as a courthouse), it defeats the entire purpose to introduce weapons into that zone. That's why prison guards who work with inmates don't carry any weapons. And the same rule should apply in courthouses.

If Nichols had overpowered an unarmed deputy, the most he could have done is injure her and then escape. I agree that his escort should have been his physical equal; presumably, the only reason that the Atlanta authorities deemed it appropriate to put a woman in charge of this prisoner is because they thought any physical disparities between the two were negated by the fact that the deputy had a gun. In retrospect, this confidence in the efficacy of arming deputies was misplaced, but then, as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have been armed in the first place.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 01:57 pm
That's interesting.

Here, escort to court for remandees is done by prison officers - who do NOT carry guns - and I was wondering about the practice - but the US is such a gun culture that I wondered if it was normal for you guys.

I believe we also tend to have alleged offenders in situ before judge and jury arrive - and there is a door behind the dock which leads to the remand cells - so they can be cuffed until settled in the dock. They are, of course, in street clothes.

We did have a fella leap the dock and take a hostage, once in my memory - but there were no weapons - except court bric-a-brac - available to him, and it all ended peacefully.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 04:35 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Thanks for the link . . . it gives more detail than the other articles I have read.
Quote:
[..] The sheriff, who repeatedly reminded reporters that he had been in office for just two months, said he could not speak about the standard procedures for escorting prisoners in the courthouse [..]

The Sheriff didn't know the standard procedures for escorting [or supervising] prisoners . . . I guess two months wasn't long enough for him to learn one of the most vital components of his job. . . .

Either he "didn't know" like you take it from that - or he "could not speak about" what the standard procedure is for escorting prisoners because it wouldn't be very wise to shout from the rooftops what your standard policy on it is, cause then all those criminals can prepare exactly for what they can expect ...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:44 pm
That's not really a factor, Nimh. I'd wager the vast majority of the prisoners making the walk aren't doing it for the first time anyway. Not only are most criminals repeat offenders but it's not like you really only get one day in court, either. Some of the perps no doubt know the procedures as well as the officers. He's floundering because he initially defended the wisdom of having a single small framed grandmother walk the accused violent criminalÂ… spouting something about training. Other employees are now speaking out about it not only being preventable; but very predictable.
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 05:55 pm
Quote:
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Monday that a courthouse surveillance camera recorded Nichols' initial surprise attack on Deputy Cynthia Hall but that no one in the control center noticed the assault.

"It's not just horrible, it was preventable," Senior Superior Court Judge Philip Etheridge told the newspaper.

A video camera, which is supposed to be monitored by two guards in a command post, shows Nichols and the deputy arriving in the holding area between two courtrooms, according to a law enforcement official who saw the tape. The video shows Hall guiding Nichols, whose hands are still handcuffed behind his back, into one of two open cells.

Hall releases one cuff and turns Nichols around to unhook the remaining cuff. But the muscular, 33-year-old Nichols then lunges at Hall, knocking the petite, 51-year-old grandmother backward into another cell. Both disappear from camera view. Two to three minutes later, Nichols emerges from the cell, holding Hall's gun belt and police radio. He picks up her keys from the floor and locks her in the cell.

A few minutes later, he emerges in civilian clothes. He locks the door behind him and calmly walks out of the holding area, carrying the gun belt, according to the official who saw the tape.

Judge Etheridge said Hall should not have been alone with Nichols, a former college linebacker who had been found with two sharpened door hinges in his socks earlier in the week.

Hall remained in critical condition Sunday, Grady Memorial Hospital officials said. Killed were Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau, Sgt. Hoyt Teasley and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent David Wilhelm.



more than one thing went wrong....


(Sorry, I had to remove the link...I'll figure it out later)
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 06:00 pm
Policy
joefromchicago wrote:
No, the policy was wrong because it allowed the deputy to carry a gun. . . .

If Nichols had overpowered an unarmed deputy, the most he could have done is injure her and then escape. I agree that his escort should have been his physical equal; presumably, the only reason that the Atlanta authorities deemed it appropriate to put a woman in charge of this prisoner is because they thought any physical disparities between the two were negated by the fact that the deputy had a gun. In retrospect, this confidence in the efficacy of arming deputies was misplaced, but then, as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have been armed in the first place.


I agree.

Why provide a dangerous offender with a victim from whom he can steal a deadly weapon? It makes no sense at all. We can line the entrances of all our courthouses with metal detectors, but the efforts of keeping members of the public from bringing weapons into the courthouse are negated by the fact that all the weapons they would ever need are already inside and available for the taking. Sad
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2005 06:00 pm
Ahhhh, finally an expert arrives!
Tell us more, JoeBlow.
0 Replies
 
 

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