He's a large man! He's approximately the same height and weight as my man. I know for a fact that someone that size could overpower me in an instant . . . and it wouldn't matter if I had a gun in my holster. I'd be overpowered before I even had a chance to reach for my weapon. The female deputy was probably properly trained in law enforcement restraint techniques, yet she was in no better position than I would have been in that situation given the size of that man.
Given the government's knowledge that this man was an extremely dangerous offender who undoubtedly was planning to flee from justice (as evidenced by two shanks found in his shoes the preceding day), did the government have an affirmative duty to protect the safety and security of the occupants of the courthouse and the public at large from this man? Given the knowledge they had BEFORE this murder spree happened, could they have reasonably believed that one armed guard was sufficient to escort this man to the courtroom?
In many cases, hindsight is an exact science . . . but foresight (foreseeability) was not totally lacking in this matter. Do you think the families of the victims should be allowed to sue the government for failure to protect their loved ones from a substantial risk of harm?
A similar question is before the United States Supreme Court. See
Affirmative Duty to Protect?
Bill, I've decided not to argue point by point against what you've said, because it's pointless. I'll just end up writing some more derogatory **** about what I perceive to be your idiotic rantings, and then you'll come back and insult me again for what you perceive to be mine. Normally I don't mind, but today I just don't feel like playing this game.
Having said that, let me get one last shot in.
Just because you sat inside like a mental patient drooling over the coverage all day, and I only read a couple stories about it, doesn't give you a monopoly on the facts. Nobody knows exactly what happened in those moments when he overpowered the deputy except the prick who shot her.
Now I will leave you to give your sermon to the rest of the people on this thread. Go get 'em tiger.
Well, kicky. I can see that you're not just another pretty face.
If that means you're done denying the obvious, insulting without purpose and claiming freely discussed policies don't exist, good. One need not know precisely how this woman was overpowered
this time to recognize the obvious folly in the policy that put her there in the first place.
Well, now we know why he wasn't shackled
from article:Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury.
y RUSS BYNUM, Associated Press Writer
DULUTH, GA. - The suspect in the courthouse shootings of a judge and two other people waved a white cloth and surrendered to authorities Saturday, but not before police say he killed an immigration agent and held a woman hostage for hours in her own apartment.
Photo
AP Photo
Reuters Photo
Reuters
Slideshow Slideshow: Judge Killed in Ga. Courthouse
AP Video Police Hunt for Man Who Killed Judge, Two Others
(AP Video)
Related Links
• Violence Involving Judicial Officials (AP)
Brian Nichols, 33, set off a massive manhunt in the Atlanta area after he allegedly overpowered a court deputy Friday, took her gun and fatally shot three people, including the judge on his rape case.
During the night, Nichols approached a woman as she entered her suburban Atlanta apartment and introduced himself as a wanted man, authorities said.
"It's my understanding that he had told her, 'If you do what I say, I won't kill you,'" Georgia Bureau of Investigation Director Vernon Keenan said.
The woman either escaped or was allowed to leave and called 911. A SWAT team gathered outside and Nichols turned himself in after watching the manhunt on television, Gwinnett County Police Chief Charles Walters said.
"He literally waved a white flag or a T-shirt and came out to our folks," Walters said.
The arrest came hours after a construction worker found the body of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent David Wilhelm, who had been shot to death about 15 miles away inside a house that the agent was having built. His blue pickup truck, pistol and badge were missing.
FBI (news - web sites) spokesman Steve Lazarus said Nichols was a suspect in that shooting, and police said the truck was found at a location other than the complex where Nichols was arrested, but did not elaborate.
As Nichols was taken into federal custody, a crowd of people cheered across the street from the apartment complex where he was arrested. They watched as a black sport utility vehicle drove away, escorted by multiple police cars with lights flashing and sirens wailing.
Prosecutors said Nichols could appear in federal court as early as Monday to face a charge of possession of a firearm by a person under indictment, the charge authorities are using to keep him in custody while they investigate the slayings.
The killings came less than two weeks after a Chicago federal judge's husband and mother were slain in their home, setting off a fresh round of worries about the safety of judges and others involved in the criminal justice system.
The day before the shootings, the judge and prosecutors in Nichols' case requested extra security after investigators found a shank ?- or homemade knife ?- fashioned from a doorknob in each of Nichols' shoes, prosecutor Gayle Abramson said.
Officials did not say what measures were taken to beef up security, but said deputy Cynthia Hall was alone when she escorted Nichols to his retrial on rape and other charges Friday. Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury.
"Anytime security has been asked for, we have provided it," Fulton County Sheriff Myron Freeman told reporters Saturday.
Nichols allegedly overpowered Hall, took her gun and shot her in the head. She remained in critical condition Saturday, but hospital officials said she was expected to survive.
Nichols then went to the courtroom where his case was being heard and allegedly killed the judge presiding over the case and a court reporter. As he escaped the courthouse, he fatally shot a deputy who confronted him, officials said.
Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter Don O'Briant was getting out of his car in a nearby parking garage when Nichols allegedly pulled a gun, demanded his keys and told him to get in the trunk.
O'Briant refused and started to run.
"I figured it was better to be shot at while I was running than to just stand there and be executed," O'Briant wrote in Saturday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
The man pistol whipped him as he tried to escape. O'Briant fell, but got up and ran again.
"I scrambled into the street, waiting for the shots to come, but they didn't come," he wrote. "I guess it just wasn't my day to die."
Throughout Friday, police said they were looking for the reporter's green Honda Accord, and highway message boards across the state issued descriptions of the vehicle. But the car was found later that night in the same parking garage where Nichols stole it.
Police said Nichols attempted more hijackings, and it was suspected that Nichols had stolen another vehicle from the same parking garage. Authorities would not comment on whether Wilhelm may have been carjacked at the garage.
Nichols eventually escaped the city's downtown by taking a train to north Atlanta. Police Chief Richard Pennington said Nichols assaulted a couple near the train station late Friday, brandishing a gun and asking if they had money or a vehicle before striking one of them in the face with the gun and fleeing.
Wilhelm was shot and killed sometime between that assault and the hostage taking at the apartment complex, which police would only say occurred "during the night."
Ned Cronan, 73, who lives across the street from where authorities found Wilhelm's body, said he's heard gunshots in the area before, but none Friday night or Saturday morning.
"I don't think they killed him there," he said.
Nichols faced a life sentence if convicted in his retrial. His earlier trial was declared a mistrial on Monday when jurors voted 8-4 for acquittal.
The retrial had started Tuesday, and Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard said he was determined to resume that trial next week.
Nichols was accused of bursting into his ex-girlfriend's home with a loaded machine gun, binding her with duct tape and sexually assaulting her over three days. Howard said Nichols brought a cooler of food in case he was hungry. Nichols claimed the pair had consensual sex.
"My guts tell me he faced a greater chance of conviction in the second trial," his attorney, Barry Hazen, told a local television station.
At the state Capitol, just down the street from the courthouse, Speaker of the House Glenn Richardson announced Nichols' arrest Saturday on the House floor as flags flew at half-staff during a rare weekend session.
"It ended the best way this could end," said Walters, the police chief. "The public can be relieved that he is off the street."
So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?
What I'm reading/hearing tonight suggests it doesn't much matter what one individual was escorting Nichols. Unshackled, with only one escort, he was capable of quite a bit. Sure hope they rethink the policies on this sort of thing in that jurisdiction.
murder spree
ehBeth wrote:So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?
From the AP article posted above:
Quote:Officials did not say what measures were taken to beef up security, but said deputy Cynthia Hall was alone when she escorted Nichols to his retrial on rape and other charges Friday. Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury.
"Anytime security has been asked for, we have provided it," Fulton County Sheriff Myron Freeman told reporters Saturday.
What does the Sheriff ordinarily do? Does he allow the dangerous offender to escort himself to the courtroom? Apparently the Sheriff responded to the request for extra security by putting "grandma" on the job:
Quote:Nichols, 33, is accused of overpowering a court deputy Friday, a grandmother in her 50s, taking her gun and fatally shooting three people including the judge in his rape case.
Source
The only person Nichols needed to overpower was the grandmother/deputy who was escorting him to the courtroom. The Sheriff provided Nichols with his first victim from whom he could steal a deadly weapon. Thereafter, Nichols didn't need to rely on his size to overpower anyone . . . he just used the gun to assault and kill . . . first the grandmother / deputy (he shot her in the head), then he shot and killed the judge & the court reporter, then he shot and killed another deputy, then he pistol whipped a driver, then he shot and killed an federal officer . . . .
After Nichols overpowered the first deputy and stole her weapon, the size of the victims that he shot and killed simply becomes irrelevant.
From now on when the Sheriff receives requests for extra security, I hope the Sheriff will send more than one deputy (a grandmother) to escort a dangerous offender down public corridors.
And he managed to find time to top another person!
Quote:He is also a suspect in the shooting death Saturday of David Wilhelm, assistant special agent in charge for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the FBI said.
Before his arrest last summer, Nichols was a computer technician for UPS, Hazen said. Nichols, an athlete who played football in college, liked to played basketball with friends, the attorney said.
"By all accounts, he was a likeable guy," said Hazen, who described Nichols as intelligent and articulate.
One of Nichols' college teammates had a differing opinion.
Nick Pergine, who played football with Nichols at Kutztown University, told The Associated Press that Nichols' physical stature and martial arts skills earned him a reputation.
"He was a bad dude," Pergine told the AP. "You didn't mess with him."
Out and out criminal psychopath.
Hmmm - sounds very much as though he should have been escorted by a couple of guards, at least.
Not sure that whether someone has grandkids is a factor! I have clients who are grandparents at forty - or younger. Really tough, mean ones too.
I would have thought that having someone walking a bit behind him, as well as beside him, would have been a minimal precaution - in case he tried the very thing he managed to do.
I don't see quite why such sturm and drang has erupted on this thread about the whole thing re male/female.
Shrugs...
I have seen huge men overpowered by prisoners in front of me very eyeses.
Luckily, there was one more than one officer there at the time.....
Which would seem to be the real point.
One wonders if this charming psychopath had managed to make the prison folk think he was all nice and settled? Surely not - they are used to them.
Er - those of you who have been avidly following this story: DID he get the female deputy's gun?
This is from today's New York Times article:
"The police say that Mr. Nichols went into the judge's chambers, where he overpowered a second deputy, handcuffing him and taking his gun. At the request of lawyers and Judge Rowland W. Barnes, security in the courtroom had already been increased after Mr. Nichols was caught with the homemade knives."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/national/13atlanta.html?th
That sounds like he got his gun from the second, male, deputy? Or did he get two guns?
Edit: Just read another story - I see he did get both weapons.
My goodness! This woman was smart and quick!
"Driving south, past the state Capitol and away from the courthouse, Mr. Nichols pulled the tow truck into another parking garage and hijacked a silver Mercury Sable owned by Almeta Kilgo, who works for Atlanta's major daily newspaper, The Journal-Constitution. She said he demanded that she get into the trunk of the car, but she refused and ran."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/national/13shoot.html
The only time I have ever had guns pulled on me, it was by two very scared police officers. I didn't do what THEY said, either - but they were police - I was pretty sure they would not shoot without good reason. Wow.
ehBeth wrote: So, anyone else getting height/weight/gender details on the other people who were over-powered by Nichols?
You mean after he had a gun?
(No single emoticon could aptly demonstrate my reaction to such an absurd question
)
ehBeth wrote:What I'm reading/hearing tonight suggests it doesn't much matter what one individual was escorting Nichols. Unshackled, with only one escort, he was capable of quite a bit. Sure hope they rethink the policies on this sort of thing in that jurisdiction.
Even if Nichols were the toughest guy around; there are thousands of other people escorted under the same idiotic policy. Does anyone doubt that many of them could easily take a "small framed" woman without sweating, but who wouldn't dream of trying an outsized healthy man?
The PC/clique mentality that's required to deny physical prowess being a factor in a physical fight would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. The truly sad part is; that very misguided attitude will likely hinder the necessary changes in policy and this
will come up again.
Actually Deb, I think it's 3 guns after his last victim. This is one of those people that should make everyone consider the death penalty. He is clearly ready willing and able to kill again. I, for one, am disappointed he survived his capture. That only means he may have the opportunity to kill again. NO good can possibly come of it.
Thanks for the link . . . it gives more detail than the other articles I have read.
Quote:Even with the capture of Mr. Nichols, questions persisted about why he was able to deprive not one, but two sheriff's deputies of their guns in the Fulton County Courthouse, especially after being caught earlier in the week with homemade knives in his shoes.
Sheriff Myron Freeman said he would appoint a task force to review safety procedures in the courthouse. The sheriff, who repeatedly reminded reporters that he had been in office for just two months, said he could not speak about the standard procedures for escorting prisoners in the courthouse and could not say what kind of holster had been issued to the deputy who had been escorting Mr. Nichols, Cynthia Hall.
Deputy Hall, 51, described as about 5 feet tall, was apparently alone with Mr. Nichols, a former college football player who is 6-foot-1 and weighs 210 pounds. She removed his handcuffs so he could change clothes before entering the courtroom.
As Mr. Nichols was dressing, he attacked Deputy Hall, leaving her in critical condition with a head wound and facial fractures, investigators said. She was still in critical condition today, a spokesman for the Sheriff's Department said.
The police say that Mr. Nichols went into the judge's chambers, where he overpowered a second deputy, handcuffing him and taking his gun. At the request of lawyers and Judge Rowland W. Barnes, security in the courtroom had already been increased after Mr. Nichols was caught with the homemade knives.
Richard L. Robbins, a lawyer who was in Judge Barnes's court at the time, said Mr. Nichols entered from behind the bench. "He had this look in his eyes where he was completely calm," Mr. Robbins said. "He looked like he was going to kill everybody and enjoy it. I heard a loud bang and I thought something fell over, and I saw the judge slump over and realized he had been shot. This guy was on his side, he never saw it coming. The way he looked, he was gone before he hit the floor. So the only consolation, if there is one, is I don't think he ever knew it happened."
The Sheriff didn't know the standard procedures for escorting [or supervising] prisoners . . . I guess two months wasn't long enough for him to learn one of the most vital components of his job. . . .
Ceili wrote:The policy was wrong, not because a women was his escort but because she was alone.
No, the policy was wrong because it allowed the deputy to carry a gun.
I've been in quite a few courtrooms in my professional career, and I can't recall seeing a single bailiff or deputy carrying any kind of weapon. There's a good reason for that: if one goes to the trouble of creating a weapon-free zone (such as a courthouse), it defeats the entire purpose to introduce weapons into that zone. That's why prison guards who work with inmates don't carry any weapons. And the same rule should apply in courthouses.
If Nichols had overpowered an
unarmed deputy, the most he could have done is injure her and then escape. I agree that his escort should have been his physical equal; presumably, the only reason that the Atlanta authorities deemed it appropriate to put a woman in charge of this prisoner is because they thought any physical disparities between the two were negated by the fact that the deputy
had a gun. In retrospect, this confidence in the efficacy of arming deputies was misplaced, but then, as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have been armed in the first place.
That's interesting.
Here, escort to court for remandees is done by prison officers - who do NOT carry guns - and I was wondering about the practice - but the US is such a gun culture that I wondered if it was normal for you guys.
I believe we also tend to have alleged offenders in situ before judge and jury arrive - and there is a door behind the dock which leads to the remand cells - so they can be cuffed until settled in the dock. They are, of course, in street clothes.
We did have a fella leap the dock and take a hostage, once in my memory - but there were no weapons - except court bric-a-brac - available to him, and it all ended peacefully.
Debra_Law wrote:Thanks for the link . . . it gives more detail than the other articles I have read.
Quote:[..] The sheriff, who repeatedly reminded reporters that he had been in office for just two months, said he could not speak about the standard procedures for escorting prisoners in the courthouse [..]
The Sheriff didn't know the standard procedures for escorting [or supervising] prisoners . . . I guess two months wasn't long enough for him to learn one of the most vital components of his job. . . .
Either he "didn't know" like you take it from that - or he "could not speak about" what the standard procedure is for escorting prisoners because it wouldn't be very wise to shout from the rooftops what your standard policy on it is, cause then all those criminals can prepare exactly for what they can expect ...
That's not really a factor, Nimh. I'd wager the vast majority of the prisoners making the walk aren't doing it for the first time anyway. Not only are most criminals repeat offenders but it's not like you really only get one day in court, either. Some of the perps no doubt know the procedures as well as the officers. He's floundering because he initially defended the wisdom of having a single small framed grandmother walk the accused violent criminalÂ… spouting something about training. Other employees are now speaking out about it not only being preventable; but very predictable.
Quote:The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Monday that a courthouse surveillance camera recorded Nichols' initial surprise attack on Deputy Cynthia Hall but that no one in the control center noticed the assault.
"It's not just horrible, it was preventable," Senior Superior Court Judge Philip Etheridge told the newspaper.
A video camera, which is supposed to be monitored by two guards in a command post, shows Nichols and the deputy arriving in the holding area between two courtrooms, according to a law enforcement official who saw the tape. The video shows Hall guiding Nichols, whose hands are still handcuffed behind his back, into one of two open cells.
Hall releases one cuff and turns Nichols around to unhook the remaining cuff. But the muscular, 33-year-old Nichols then lunges at Hall, knocking the petite, 51-year-old grandmother backward into another cell. Both disappear from camera view. Two to three minutes later, Nichols emerges from the cell, holding Hall's gun belt and police radio. He picks up her keys from the floor and locks her in the cell.
A few minutes later, he emerges in civilian clothes. He locks the door behind him and calmly walks out of the holding area, carrying the gun belt, according to the official who saw the tape.
Judge Etheridge said Hall should not have been alone with Nichols, a former college linebacker who had been found with two sharpened door hinges in his socks earlier in the week.
Hall remained in critical condition Sunday, Grady Memorial Hospital officials said. Killed were Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau, Sgt. Hoyt Teasley and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent David Wilhelm.
more than one thing went wrong....
(Sorry, I had to remove the link...I'll figure it out later)
Policy
joefromchicago wrote:No, the policy was wrong because it allowed the deputy to carry a gun. . . .
If Nichols had overpowered an unarmed deputy, the most he could have done is injure her and then escape. I agree that his escort should have been his physical equal; presumably, the only reason that the Atlanta authorities deemed it appropriate to put a woman in charge of this prisoner is because they thought any physical disparities between the two were negated by the fact that the deputy had a gun. In retrospect, this confidence in the efficacy of arming deputies was misplaced, but then, as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have been armed in the first place.
I agree.
Why provide a dangerous offender with a victim from whom he can steal a deadly weapon? It makes no sense at all. We can line the entrances of all our courthouses with metal detectors, but the efforts of keeping members of the public from bringing weapons into the courthouse are negated by the fact that all the weapons they would ever need are already inside and available for the taking.
Ahhhh, finally an expert arrives!
Tell us more, JoeBlow.
