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Bankruptcy laws amended. And the big winner is????

 
 
au1929
 
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:09 am
Bankruptcy Bill Set for Passage; Victory for Bush


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/business/09bankruptcy.html?th

OP-ED COLUMNIST

The Debt-Peonage Society

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: March 8, 2005

Today the Senate is expected to vote to limit debate on a bill that toughens the existing bankruptcy law, probably ensuring the bill's passage. A solid bloc of Republican senators, assisted by some Democrats, has already voted down a series of amendments that would either have closed loopholes for the rich or provided protection for some poor and middle-class families.

The bankruptcy bill was written by and for credit card companies, and the industry's political muscle is the reason it seems unstoppable. But the bill also fits into the broader context of what Jacob Hacker, a political scientist at Yale, calls "risk privatization": a steady erosion of the protection the government provides against personal misfortune, even as ordinary families face ever-growing economic insecurity.

The bill would make it much harder for families in distress to write off their debts and make a fresh start. Instead, many debtors would find themselves on an endless treadmill of payments.

The credit card companies say this is needed because people have been abusing the bankruptcy law, borrowing irresponsibly and walking away from debts. The facts say otherwise.

A vast majority of personal bankruptcies in the United States are the result of severe misfortune. One recent study found that more than half of bankruptcies are the result of medical emergencies. The rest are overwhelmingly the result either of job loss or of divorce.

To the extent that there is significant abuse of the system, it's concentrated among the wealthy - including corporate executives found guilty of misleading investors - who can exploit loopholes in the law to protect their wealth, no matter how ill-gotten.

One increasingly popular loophole is the creation of an "asset protection trust," which is worth doing only for the wealthy. Senator Charles Schumer introduced an amendment that would have limited the exemption on such trusts, but apparently it's O.K. to game the system if you're rich: 54 Republicans and 2 Democrats voted against the Schumer amendment.

Other amendments were aimed at protecting families and individuals who have clearly been forced into bankruptcy by events, or who would face extreme hardship in repaying debts. Ted Kennedy introduced an exemption for cases of medical bankruptcy. Russ Feingold introduced an amendment protecting the homes of the elderly. Dick Durbin asked for protection for armed services members and veterans. All were rejected.

None of this should come as a surprise: it's all part of the pattern.

As Mr. Hacker and others have documented, over the past three decades the lives of ordinary Americans have become steadily less secure, and their chances of plunging from the middle class into acute poverty ever larger. Job stability has declined; spells of unemployment, when they happen, last longer; fewer workers receive health insurance from their employers; fewer workers have guaranteed pensions.

Some of these changes are the result of a changing economy. But the underlying economic trends have been reinforced by an ideologically driven effort to strip away the protections the government used to provide. For example, long-term unemployment has become much more common, but unemployment benefits expire sooner. Health insurance coverage is declining, but new initiatives like health savings accounts (introduced in the 2003 Medicare bill), rather than discouraging that trend, further undermine the incentives of employers to provide coverage.

Above all, of course, at a time when ever-fewer workers can count on pensions from their employers, the current administration wants to phase out Social Security.

The bankruptcy bill fits right into this picture. When everything else goes wrong, Americans can still get a measure of relief by filing for bankruptcy - and rising insecurity means that they are forced to do this more often than in the past. But Congress is now poised to make bankruptcy law harsher, too.

Warren Buffett recently made headlines by saying America is more likely to turn into a "sharecroppers' society" than an "ownership society." But I think the right term is a "debt peonage" society - after the system, prevalent in the post-Civil War South, in which debtors were forced to work for their creditors. The bankruptcy bill won't get us back to those bad old days all by itself, but it's a significant step in that direction.

And any senator who votes for the bill should be ashamed.

And the big winner is?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 6,064 • Replies: 121
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:15 am
Ever had a debt someone owed you wiped out just because the person wanted to take a personal bankruptcy, au? I have. Do you think it was fair that someone taking bankruptcy was able to wipe out the debt they were obligated to pay me? It's way too easy to declare bankruptcy, and not fair to those who are owed the debts. I have little sympathy to those who whine and complain that it's not going to be as easy to wipe out their debts now. Go cry to someone who cares.
0 Replies
 
NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:28 am
Likely the credit card and debt industry.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 12:24 pm
The BIG winner is - PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR ONES ACTIONS.

Don't blame the credit card company for your spending problems. About time people take responsibility for their actions.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:03 pm
Quote:
The BIG winner is - PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR ONES ACTIONS.

Don't blame the credit card company for your spending problems. About time people take responsibility for their actions.


Sigh. Where to begin arguing against this?

Do you believe the Iraqi people are responsible for their own actions?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:08 pm
<bigger sigh>

Only you (and possibly Dookie) could try and draw this discussion from bankruptcy laws to the Iraq War.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:18 pm
I think he's talking about international debt forgiveness of Iraq's national debt.

If this is the same law they've been pushing for years, I believe it also gives credit card collectors priority over child support payments. Meaning the banks get the money before the kids do.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:20 pm
I just don't understand how you think that everyone is personall responsible for everything that happens in their lives, except certain people, who we need to spend billions of dollars to help.

It doesn't make any sense. But I'll try another tack in order to avoid riling you up, Tico.

If you are a young couple with a child. And the child gets sick. And your health insurance doesn't cover all the bills. How are you going to pay the bills? Loans and credit. Before you give up the life of your child, you would take out every loan or line of credit you could.

And that's the exact situation that leads people to bankruptcy in many cases - medical bills. That's not irresponsibility. You can't make it out as if bankruptcy is only b/c people bought houses and cars they couldn't afford.

And what about 'asset protection' for the rich that this bill supports? If you have over 5 million in net worth, you lose a lot less of a percentage when you declare bankruptcy than if you have 50 thousand. How does that make any sense?

It doesn't. This bill wasn't designed to actually help anyone except the credit card companies. These same companies prey upon the poor and young by extending them large lines of credit, with basically no background check. Then, when the uninformed youth/poor person can't make the payments, the rate on the card is jacked up to 20% and the cheese starts roollllllllllliiinng in.

The CC industry as a whole profited 30 BILLION dollars last year. Don't buy the argument that they need the help from this bill, b/c it simply isn't true; it's just another way to squeeze the middle class just a little harder.

What do you people think is going to happen to all the people who are going to lose their houses, cars, etc b/c they can't declare bankruptcy? You think they are all going to go away?

Why are some people deserving of our money and help but not others? Shouldn't we spend money to improve Americans lives before other people's lives? After all, it's not our job to help other people; if they had any sense of personal responsibility they would do it themselves.

Right?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:27 pm
So ... was it fair when these people declared bankruptcy and wiped out their debts they owed me?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:30 pm
Quote:
So ... was it fair when these people declared bankruptcy and wiped out their debts they owed me?


I don't know if it was fair or not. That's why we have courts to determine such things.

If the people didn't have the money to pay you back, what would you have them do? Become indentured servants to you until the money is paid back? Is that really how you want our society to run, Tico?

Why, if you don't mind me asking, did these people owe you money? Why didn't they pay it back? You see, every situation isn't the same.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:38 pm
Yeah, well there is no court determining that "thing." All you do is list the debt in your bankruptcy filing, and away it goes.

They could pay me back a little each month until they paid off their debts. Restructure their debt load ... don't wipe it out. I prefer our society ran on personal responsibility, rather than personal irresponsibility.

These people I'm talking about owed me money because they came to me and asked me to perform professional services for them, which I did.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:40 pm
And you charged them $150 dollars to make a phone call, didn't you.

Just joshin' ya, Tico. There are courts that handle bankruptcy, and there are different ways of filing. But you are the lawyer so you probably already know that. In some cases people do repay their debts on a schedule without the oppressive interest and late fees.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
These people I'm talking about owed me money because they came to me and asked me to perform professional services for them, which I did.


"professional services"? o.O (raised eyebrow)
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:41 pm
Tico Gannon....
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:45 pm
Quote:
These people I'm talking about owed me money because they came to me and asked me to perform professional services for them, which I did.


Naturally, you won't get into the services, though if I guessed with ya I would say... hmmm... Lawyer of some type.

I agree and understand that we need personal responsibility; but there has to be a check upon predatory business practices as well, which is exactly what a credit card company operates off of; deceptive and predatory practices.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:51 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Tico Gannon....


Why do you hate the gays?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:55 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Tico Gannon....


Laughing

Just call me "Bulldog."

FreeDuck wrote:
And you charged them $150 dollars to make a phone call, didn't you.

Just joshin' ya, Tico. There are courts that handle bankruptcy, and there are different ways of filing. But you are the lawyer so you probably already know that. In some cases people do repay their debts on a schedule without the oppressive interest and late fees.


The particular bankruptcy filings I'm referring to were Chapter 7 filings (complete liquidation), not Chapter 11 (reorganization) or Chapter 13 (debt adjustment/repayment).

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Naturally, you won't get into the services, though if I guessed with ya I would say... hmmm... Lawyer of some type.

I agree and understand that we need personal responsibility; but there has to be a check upon predatory business practices as well, which is exactly what a credit card company operates off of; deceptive and predatory practices.

Cycloptichorn


Yeah, "lawyer of some type." How is the discharge of these debts that I'm referring to a check upon predatory business practices?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:55 pm
McGentrix wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Tico Gannon....


Why do you hate the gays?


Why are you calling Tico gay? I thought he was your friend.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 01:59 pm
Quote:
Yeah, "lawyer of some type." How is the discharge of these debts that I'm referring to a check upon predatory business practices?


Yours in particular no doubt was completely non-predatory; I wasn't trying to imply that it was.

But that doesn't mean that ALL transactions are that way, and that businesses (especially credit cards) ARE in many cases predatory upon the poor and young.

For those cases where people can't pay their debts due to accident/sickness/natural disaster, can we as a society reasonably expect them to be indentured servants for the rest of their lives? Is my question.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 02:04 pm
IMO ... no. But I don't bemoan any attempt to make it more difficult to achieve personal bankruptcy, or to require greater levels of personal responsibility. It's too damn easy to file bankruptcy and divorce in this country.
0 Replies
 
 

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