Evolution? How?

BDV wrote:

....anyway heres a few questions of my own, if someone from both sides of the fence could answer for me....

1) if it takes millions of years for light from other stars to reach us then how is the earth only 6000 years old? Especially when genesis quite clearly states that heaven and earth came at the same time

2) how did the earth get created first? surely basic physics dictates that the sun should have come first, and as the Bible states "God" made the heavens and earth first, assuming "Heaven" is the stars, then he got it wrong as the stars are suns, so he created them at the same time.

3) Why is there water before creation ? surely if there was no sun then it would be ice as the temp would be absolute zero, or was earth held in an incubator ?

hi BDV,

1) Many possible answers to this, one commonly considered by some creationists is that the world, the universe, etc could have been created with the 'appearance of age'.

That is, at the moment it was created it looked as if it had been around for a while.

Rivers that water may travel through for many days from start to finish may have been created with water at all points along the way, 'appearing' to have been flowing for some time.

Trees of a size that might normally have taken 10, 20, 50, or 100 years to grow may have been created in a moment, but appeared to be years old.

Adam, a 'full grown' man may have appeared to be 20, 30, 40 years 'old' at the moment he was created.

Likewise light from the stars could have been created to 'appear' to have traveled very far when it was moments old.

Just an idea.

2) I think your assumption that the heavens are the stars may be incorrect.

3) Why do you assume there was water before creation? Do you mean before Day 1 of creation or before the creation of the sun (Day 4)?

If you mean before the creation of the sun on Day 4, then just as there was Light on Day 1, there could also be heat.

( A commonly held misunderstanding is that the order of the creation days must be in error because there is Light on Day 1 and the sun is created on Day 4.

But where does Genesis say that the source of the Light on Day 1 must and can only be the sun or a star like it?

It doesn't, and there is no reason to assume that this is the only possibility.)

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BDV wrote:

So where did the water come from ?

RexRed wrote:
Heaven and earth are words that describe energy (heavens) and matter (earth).

In the beginning God "created" energy and matter (which are both the same thing in different states).

Genesis 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

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Quote:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

King James Version of 1769 with Strongs Numbers and Morphology

I think this line is pretty black and white, except nobody seems to have a clear answer on what is heaven? and what is earth? surely it has to be physical, otherwise there would be no water, as noted in the next line.

Quote:

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

King James Version of 1769 with Strongs Numbers and Morphology

I am surprised yous missed this, it is the 2nd line in genesis, that is before the 7 days, so why quote Genesis 1:7 (Where it quite clearly states nothing to do with creating water, otherwise "God" would say "Let there be water") ? I'll ask the question again, where did this water come from ? Once I get a clear answer on this i will move to the next parts,

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real life wrote:

1) Many possible answers to this, one commonly considered by some creationists is that the world, the universe, etc could have been created with the 'appearance of age'.

Assuming it is done perfectly, which any God could do, would the 'appearance of age' be any different from 'actual age'?

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BDV wrote:

Quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

King James Version of 1769 with Strongs Numbers and Morphology

I think this line is pretty black and white, except nobody seems to have a clear answer on what is heaven? and what is earth? surely it has to be physical, otherwise there would be no water, as noted in the next line.

Quote:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

King James Version of 1769 with Strongs Numbers and Morphology

I am surprised yous missed this, it is the 2nd line in genesis, that is before the 7 days, so why quote Genesis 1:7 (Where it quite clearly states nothing to do with creating water, otherwise "God" would say "Let there be water") ? I'll ask the question again, where did this water come from ? Once I get a clear answer on this i will move to the next parts,

The Earth was created. (verse 1) And it had water in it. The water wasn't there before the Earth, and Genesis doesn't say that it was.

------------------------

The heavens (verse 1) probably refer to space itself. Stars, including the sun, were formed on Day 4.

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
1) Many possible answers to this, one commonly considered by some creationists is that the world, the universe, etc could have been created with the 'appearance of age'.

Assuming it is done perfectly, which any God could do, would the 'appearance of age' be any different from 'actual age'?

The 'appearance of age' could indeed be different from 'actual age', as was just discussed. (Something could be created to 'appear' quite old, but be only moments old.)

Must it be? No.

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The anomalies in the Bible are enough to make one shudder. The writers were the Stephen Kings of that time about an entity not too far removed from David Copperfield. As Lewis Black points out comically on his new HBO special, "Red, White and Screwed," the Old Testament is his people's books. It wasn't good enough for the Christians who came up with a New Testament as it has a new character and, "You're going to love him!" Was the entire Universe created in seven days and made to look like it was billions of years old and the Earth was only six-thousand years old but made to look older? That's just too stupifyingly ridiculous that it's hard to comprehend how the mind works in those individuals who believe that. Of course, there is something that is larger and more powerful than any of us as individuals. It's simply called The Universe. As I continue to read those who are trying to prove conclusively that hominids interbred with Chimps, it's not that they believe it, it's that they want to display the abject igorance that this, in fact, is the proof that it occurred.

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real life wrote:

The 'appearance of age' could indeed be different from 'actual age', as was just discussed. (Something could be created to 'appear' quite old, but be only moments old.)

Must it be? No.

If the 'appearance' of age is indistinguishable (by mortals) from 'actual' age, then there is, for all intents and purposes, no difference.

Therefor, the argument of a perfect 'appearance' of age is a waste of time.

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It does, however, raise the question of why "real life's" imaginary friend was at such pains to dupe so much of the population. It does not speak well for the character of him/her/it.

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Setanta wrote:

It does, however, raise the question of why "real life's" imaginary friend was at such pains to dupe so much of the population. It does not speak well for the character of him/her/it.

His name is Harvey and he is a giant rabbit.

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Setanta wrote:

It does, however, raise the question of why "real life's" imaginary friend was at such pains to dupe so much of the population. It does not speak well for the character of him/her/it.

Your assumption of an 'intent to deceive' is not well founded, when in fact the Creator went to great lengths to make it clear when the heavens and earth had actually been created.

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The alternative of creating without an appearance of age may be seen as impractical.

Instead of creating trees and plants, would the Creator simply scatter seed on the ground?

Instead of creating a 'full grown' man and woman, would He deposit an infant, or a fertilized egg on the newly created surface of the planet?

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I find the dichotomy of Bush and god quite interesting, considering the fact that people who believe in them are able to rationalize away all the problems and incompetence that they have "supposedly" imposed on the human populace.

Can anyone explain why?

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Chimps believe in chimps.

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real life wrote:

Your assumption of an 'intent to deceive' is not well founded, when in fact the Creator went to great lengths to make it clear when the heavens and earth had actually been created.

Yes, all evidence shows that the Universe and everything in it evolved from a point in time many billions of years ago.

Your blind persistance in the accuracy of a written document, pales in comparison to the physical realities around us.

If the appearance of age is indistinguishable from actual age (which we have already determined), and the appearance is of billions of years (which it clearly is), then the age *is* billions of years.

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real life wrote:

The alternative of creating without an appearance of age may be seen as impractical.

Instead of creating trees and plants, would the Creator simply scatter seed on the ground?

Instead of creating a 'full grown' man and woman, would He deposit an infant, or a fertilized egg on the newly created surface of the planet?

Instead of creating a 'full grown planet' and multitudes of smaller things, would he not simply do it all in a big bang, and let it evolve. MUCH more elegant than piece by piece construction.

Thank you for demonstrating the logic of evolution over creationism.

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No more effective revelation of the absurdity comprising the Abrahamic creation myth exists than the ludicrous validation attempts proffered by its staunchest proponents. ID-iocy indeed defines itself and encompasses the demographic uncritically endorsive thereof.

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real wrote:
Instead of creating a 'full grown' man and woman, would He deposit an infant, or a fertilized egg on the newly created surface of the planet?

Which came first, the egg or the chicken?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

real wrote:
Instead of creating a 'full grown' man and woman, would He deposit an infant, or a fertilized egg on the newly created surface of the planet?

Which came first, the egg or the chicken?

Actually, it would have to have been the egg - more correctly, millions of eggs, over countless generations, the genetic expression of "chicken-ness" increasing over time, generation by generation, untill such time as chicken became distinct from chicken's progenitors, breeding true unto itself. Thats the way evolution works - a little here, a little there, a step one way, a step another, some steps reinforcing their own promulgation more successfully than others, some expressions proving adaptable, accommodative of change, others less so. Hence, we had the auk and the dodo, and hence we have the labradoodle; evolution responds to, results from, stimulation, whether by natural environment or artificial circumstance. If a natural niche exists, nature will fill it, if humankind perceives the desire for a niche, humankind will create and fill that niche. If the population of some particular niche subsequently proves incapable of continuing to adapt to ongoing changes in that niche, or proves uncompetitive with other populations capable of and engaged in exploiting that niche, nature takes its course. If yuppies cease to proliferate, the labradoodle will go extinct.

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timber's zoonomia includes

Quote:

the labradoodle;

SAY WHAT? Was I absent for that lecture?

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farmerman wrote:

timber's zoonomia includes
Quote:
the labradoodle;

SAY WHAT? Was I absent for that lecture?

The Labradoodle ... honest to god, its real - more's the pity.

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