Evolution? How?

Objects are only inanimate within when they are man made...

When you look with the naked eye at a common pin (man made) you see a perfect point but when you look at the point of a pin under a microscope you will see that the end is not perfect but jagged and crudely shaped...

But when you look at a lilly of the field (God made) under a microscope the deeper you look the more detail you find... The detail of God always goes deeper within the object.

(BTW This is the same for the Bible. The detail resides deep within and is not completely on the surface.)

So if you are looking for detail, life, or creation within objects first ask yourself who made it, then ask yourself are you looking deep enough within?

Who made the Bible, are you looking deep enough within?

RexRed, can you see the forest from the trees?

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." (Genesis 1:14-19 KJV)I see, so then God did not create the sun, moon, earth on the fourth day, he made them like my wife makes cookies, he ran to the store for the ingredients. So if god did not create the sun, moon, earth on the fourth day but simply made them like my wife makes cookies, who created the ingredients?

Yes quarks are things which cannot be seen or observed but science "believes" in them anyway because they have measured the effects of them?

Can we not measure the effects of God on a believer?

How is the worth/value of a man changed who has been touched by the masters hand?

The Touch of the Masters Hand

Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer thought it scarcely worth his while to waste much time on the old violin, but held it up with a smile; "What am I bidden, good folks," he cried, "Who'll start the bidding for me?" "A dollar, a dollar"; then two!" "Only two? Two dollars, and who'll make it three? Three dollars, once; three dollars twice; going for three.." But no, from the room, far back, a gray-haired man came forward and picked up the bow; Then, wiping the dust from the old violin, and tightening the loose strings, he played a melody pure and sweet as caroling angel sings.

The music ceased, and the auctioneer, with a voice that was quiet and low, said; "What am I bid for the old violin?" And he held it up with the bow. A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two? Two thousand! And who'll make it three? Three thousand, once, three thousand, twice, and going and gone," said he. The people cheered, but some of them cried, "We do not quite understand what changed its worth." Swift came the reply: "The touch of a master's hand."

And many a man with life out of tune, and battered and scarred with sin, Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd, much like the old violin, A "mess of pottage," a glass of wine; a game - and he travels on. "He is going" once, and "going twice, He's going and almost gone." But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd never can quite understand the worth of a soul and the change that's wrought by the touch of the Master's hand.

Myra 'Brooks' Welch


Can we not observe this change?

Spirituality is a perfect science...

The Bridge Builder

An old man, going a lone highway,
Came at the evening, cold and gray,
To chasm, vast and deep and wide,
Through which was flowing a sullen tide.
The old man crossed in the twilight dim;
The sullen stream had no fears for him;
But he turned when safe on the other side
And built a bridge to span the tide.

"Old man," said a fellow pilgrim near,
"You are wasting strength with building here;
Your journey will end with the ending day;
You never again must pass this way;
You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide --
Why build you the bridge at the eventide?"

The builder lifted his old gray head:
"Good friend, in the path I have come," he said,
"There followeth after me today
A youth whose feet must pass this way.
This chasm that has been naught to me
To that fair-haired youth may a pit-fall be,
He, too, must cross in the twilight dim;
Good friend, I am building the bridge for him."

Will Allen Dromgoole

We can measure (at least some of) the effects of the belief of god on a believer.

However in order to measure the effects of god on a believer you would have to demonstrate not only that god exists but that god is the impetus for the effects on a believer. You have demonstrated neither.

Naughty Rex.

NOW THIS IS RATHER COMPLICATED...

I am speaking to most all of you here...

Because you need to see a different "spiritual" reality/PERCEPTION than you "believe" OR even "disbelieve". Even those who disbelieve are still believing/perceiving in what they don't believe...

Though you may disbelieve what religion says you are still seeing the same misguided reality that those who believe are seeing. I supply that you are both arguing a using the same false point of reference...

Disbelievers are allowing clergy to interpret the words of the Bible rather than applying science to them (THE WORDS) themselves.

You swallow the clergy's interpretations whole then deny them without looking in the Bible to see if the theist lied or was wrong... It is no wonder you fear the theists. You are all held captives by your own ignorance and gullibility and their own fabricated brand of religion that has no basis whatsoever in the real meaning of the holy scriptures.

God created the ingredients long before Eden in the first verse of Genesis... JUST THINK ABOUT THAT FOR JUST LONG ENOUGH FOR IT TO SINK IN...

Between verse one and two of Genesis is perhaps billions if not trillions of years...

Look up a King James Bible online so you can see the exact word script used... (you will need to do this to understand) Because in the King James Bible the translators always italicized words that were added... This is something interesting that should only catch the eye of the most avid Biblical reader.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Comment:
...and the earth "was" without form is not the word "was" but the word "became".

Why is the first WAS not italicized and the second WAS is italicized?

Answer:
The word "became" is the only form of the verb TO BE that the Hebrews actually wrote into the originals. All other forms of the verb TO BE are omitted except when the writer need to describe the action "became" then it was written in. So the first "was" in verse 2 is not the word "was" but it should have been translated as the word "became"...

This is monumental...

If the earth became without form... how long did it take to become this way? Common, you people claim to be smart THINK ABOUT IT.

This denotes an unspecified period of TIME!

Why? Because the Bible is a hodge podge of abstract thought just jumbled together by well meaning fanatics (cynical)... or because this is to draw the reader to hidden detail? It is most assuredly the latter...

God did not create the world without form and empty... it "became" that way (Lucifer).

It may have taken millions or much more years for darkness to set in...

Black holes formed into dark matter absorbing abysses and God said let there be pulsars and galaxies formed

On the earth we had grotesque forms (dinosaurs) on the earth, rocks and the ice age was a life inhibitive force where the sun could no longer shine it's life giving force.

People need to apply science and the strictest rules of grammar to the Bible and not just assume it is a hodgepodge written by JEPD insertions and merely coming by the will of men/women.

[Which I do not believe in the JEPD stuff anyway... Moses (through inspiration of God) wrote the pentateuch from oral sagas and revelation.]

So the ingredients were created long before Eden and God just formed things and made things using materials already "created" in verse 1...

Verse one says he created the heavens and the earth so why would he need to "create" them again on day 4? Why not just make and form them? SEE THE LOGIC IS THERE!!!

People treat the Bible like a slap shot book and thus they get slap shot answers... (especially clergy)

When you treat the words with integrity and use meek logic then you get answers with integrity and these kinds of answers are the real truth of God...

I wish some people would actually take me on logically with this. Whenever I mention this (first creation) people go lala you all clam up in disbelief then dismiss what I say and go back to the same old tripe arguments based on the fallacy of THIS very point...

SOMEONE OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE IMPLICATIONS!!!

One might argue that made, formed and created all mean the same thing and the Bible just uses them haphazardly...

This is why I say the Bible has checks and balances...

Isa 43:7 - Show Context
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Isa 45:18 - Show Context
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Comment:
Really think about this.. (There is wisdom here) what did God create, what did God form and what did God make?

Here the three words are all used on one sentence.. which clearly indicates they (Biblically) have subtle differences in meaning...

But that does not mean the effects are not able to be evidenced....

I see my evidence question has been side stepped.

If you want to believe in something, here's something worth believing in.

There's even a page full of evidence right here.

To add to its authenticity, it has it's own Wikipedia entry.

Pastafarian heaven includes, at least, one beer volcano and one stripper factory.

That does it for me.

For more info, try the newsgroup news:alt.religion.pastafarianism

Now I have a question, If God formed or made the earth does that mean he did not create it? (I really thought this one through years ago.)

I won't make anyone wait for the answer like I had to... hehe

The answer is that God created the materials that make up the earth "in the beginning" so when it refers to God forming the earth it is an act that occurs much AFTER the beginning...

The Bible doesn't say God "created" man from the dust of the ground (although God ultimately created humans) but it says God "formed" man... and it doesn't specifically say it happened completely "on that very day". The text just supplies that by that day (or the end thereof) man was fully formed... It just makes a plain statement of fact. It is not preceded with the word "then" (to denote time) and the fact that this is happening during a weeks work for God there is no reason to believe that forming man could not have started BEFORE Eden considering the MATERIALS to do so were here, for again, "an unspecified length of time"...

Science tells us this length of time has by no means been SHORT...

Though this is simple it is a hard construct to grasp amid such biblical PROPOUNDED "error".

God didn't create us but he did. God didn't create the earth but he did.

AFTER THE INITIAL CREATION: In Genesis 1:1 (an unspecified amount of time passes)

Darkness becomes an abyss.

So after this time God quickens the universe with "light" (communication) and begins to form things and make things into some semblance of inhabitable balance (Eden). This balance is going to all climax in the space of nearly a week

Then God "creates" AGAIN... (within the space of this particular week) But... he does not need to create matter and energy because they have been previously created.

So God takes virtue and CREATES that in humans as his second creation...

So the creation of virtue is created millions of years later after the initial creation of the heavens and the earth...

So the Bible really indicates that man evolved from matter (heaven) and energy (earth) until divine virtue came and changed the species...

Why am I the only one who can see this?

Then God tells Adam and Eve to replenish the earth, REALLY...

Why don't people read and understand this stuff?

How can you replenish the earth if it has not been previously plenished?

Ge 1:28
And God blessed them [Adam and Eve], and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Ge 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.


Comment:
I can see God saying replenish to Noah but Adam and Eve?

Why would God tell Adam and Eve to replenish the earth if they were the very first living souls to inhabit the earth?

Why replenish the earth? So there must have been forms of life before Adam and Eve that God had used in forming the final two carbon units who would first hold this new "created" spirit.


The Bible has again, "checks and balances"... It reveals to the diligent and reaffirms it's meaning in so many various ways such that it's truth cannot be broken...

God formed the body, made the the life, and created the spirit...

Since the life and body were just made and formed they could have existed before Eden because the materials were in existence...

Since the devil appeared to Adam and Eve as the "lowliest FORM of creature" and NOT the angel of light, you can just guess what he was doing on earth for billions of years BEFORE Eden...

(This was hard to write.)

Some words for thought...

Ge 37:20
Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.

Ps 88:6
Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

Eze 31:16
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth

Re 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Re 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Re 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Re 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Re 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Re 20:1
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Re 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Any evidence that can be interpreted as supporting evolution, can also be interpreted as supporting creation.

In science, the evidence doesn't 'belong' to any side or the other.

The fossil record doesn't 'belong' to evolutionists. They are free to draw whatever inferences from it that they see fit.

Same with creationists, they infer from the fossils as well. The creationists don't 'own' the fossil record either.

So your question about 'what evidence do creationists have?' really misses the point. They 'have' the same evidence to study, interpret and draw conclusions from that the evolutionists do.

real life
The fossil record doesn't support creationism, that's for sure.

If the fossil records prove evolution they still do not disprove creation God or the Bible...

Here we go again; prove to me there are no jelly donuts on Uranus.

Stevo

Science cannot even tell if pi is a repeating decimal and you expect me to prove God with it?

I keep telling you we measure God with the spirit (or our 6th sense of ethics) that God has made available to the believing world.

I am not saying that all people or Christians display or demonstrate these ethics but they do exist.

How these "holy" ethics/virtues are obtained is another story...

...and mocha latte...

God is both a creationist and a naturalist...

God creates matter and energy and then we evolve in the naturalist part of God...