real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Apr, 2006 11:53 pm
Setanta wrote:
Do me a favor, and point to the use of the word "pliable" in the linked material.

Surely you're not making things up, just to attempt to make your point seem more significant, are you?


I'm sorry. I thought I had posted this quote previously. Thanks for asking.

from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325100541.htm

2nd para

Quote:
Dr. Mary Schweitzer, assistant professor of paleontology with a joint appointment at the N.C. Museum of Natural Sciences, has succeeded in isolating soft tissue from the femur of a 68-million-year-old dinosaur. Not only is the tissue largely intact, it's still transparent and pliable, and microscopic interior structures resembling blood vessels and even cells are still present.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 12:07 am
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
That the soft tissue is some type of formless 'soft material' that seeped into the bone is very unlikely since it closely resembled the blood vessels, structures, etc that you would expect to find in a bone.


Hi RL,

All the materials that seep into any bone are formless until they harden and become a fossil. The hard structures closely resemble the structures of the original bone.

All I was suggesting is that some "other" chemical compound may have accumulated in the soft tissues and has semi-solidified rather than hardened. In addition, the chemical process scientists are using to treat the fossils might be softening the materials which have raplaced the soft tissues.

As with all things in science, they will gather more data and propose an explanation which best fits the evidence.


Thanks for your reply. Yes, I understand your position and I will be interested also in the additional data that they may be able to gather.

However, since Dr Schweitzer is an experienced researcher in this area, if the chemicals she used did tend to soften the material, I would think this would have been mentioned prominently as a likely explanation, but it wasn't. I don't want to propose an argument based on silence, so I'll leave it at that.

I won't (as timber seemed to imply) suggest that Dr Schweitzer's unfamiliarity with other research in her area of specialty is to blame for her surprise at the results so far.

timberlandko wrote:
That Schweitzer was surprised by her findings, such findings were neither new nor unique to her research; she and her team simply were unaware of similar, related findings.....


I think that's completely uncalled for. Trashing the messenger is just a way of avoiding the message.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 02:14 am
http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/press_releases/minos_3-30-06.html
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 02:16 am
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-04/ra-obb040206.php
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 04:47 am
Thanks, "real life"--i was making sure you were being honest with us, and not tarting up one of your old whores of an argument to attempt to make the faded old hussy seem more attractive.

You have had no response so far to my questions about the simple matter of putting all the varieties of cervidea on board you little biblical boat, along with necessary fodder, as well as Pauligirl's short list of dinosaurs, with their fodder. Do you still expect reasonable people to believe that little cockleshell could have held all the animals, two by two?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 04:54 am
Setanta wrote:
You have had no response so far to my questions about the simple matter of putting all the varieties of cervidea on board you little biblical boat, along with necessary fodder, as well as Pauligirl's short list of dinosaurs, with their fodder. Do you still expect reasonable people to believe that little cockleshell could have held all the animals, two by two?


And that the pairs of each animal would have resulted in the wide range of biodiversity within a single species that we see now today?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 05:14 am
real life wrote:
However, since Dr Schweitzer is an experienced researcher in this area, if the chemicals she used did tend to soften the material, I would think this would have been mentioned prominently as a likely explanation, but it wasn't. I don't want to propose an argument based on silence, so I'll leave it at that.


There have been more articles (and research papers) written on this subject than just the one you are quoting (at least one of them is linked somewhere in an A2K discussion because I put it there). I've read them. They suggest that the chemicals used might have softened (reacted with) the material (I didn't just make it up).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 05:16 am
Which is to say, the tissue referred to cannot necessarily be considered to have been "pliable" while in situ, before being removed to a lab?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 07:52 am
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
However, since Dr Schweitzer is an experienced researcher in this area, if the chemicals she used did tend to soften the material, I would think this would have been mentioned prominently as a likely explanation, but it wasn't. I don't want to propose an argument based on silence, so I'll leave it at that.


There have been more articles (and research papers) written on this subject than just the one you are quoting (at least one of them is linked somewhere in an A2K discussion because I put it there). I've read them. They suggest that the chemicals used might have softened (reacted with) the material (I didn't just make it up).


Hi Ros,

I don't doubt that some would suggest that. I'm not saying you made it up.

It just seems rather unlikely.

I would find it amazing if an experienced researcher like Dr Schweitzer were to make such an obvious blunder and then allow it to be published as a 'new find' and something that 'surprised' her.

She was able to repeat the results on at least three occasions with different bones. Did none of her colleagues or the scientists at the institutions from which she obtained the samples ever say "Look you're probably the cause of this. You're using XYZ chemical." ?

In addition, the soft tissue is described as being 'pliable' and 'stretchy' , not just 'soft'.

And I would be very surprised that Science Daily and others who have published it would not immediately catch it and debunk it, instead of falling prey to the same error.

But hey.........
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 08:01 am
What about that passenger list, "real life," how come you keep dodging that question?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 08:26 am
Setanta wrote:
You have had no response so far to my questions about the simple matter of putting all the varieties of cervidea on board you little biblical boat, along with necessary fodder, as well as Pauligirl's short list of dinosaurs, with their fodder. Do you still expect reasonable people to believe that little cockleshell could have held all the animals, two by two?


Hi Setanta,

Although it's fun watching you and Pauligirl others having fun with this (I don't mind at all, I have a pretty good sense of humor) I don't think that the ark was as small as you may suppose.

Conservative estimates would put the capacity of the Ark in the range of well over 1 million cubic ft, or alternately up to possibly over 3 million cubic ft if we use the measurement you suggested.

The use of cages and mostly smaller, younger (even infant) animals instead of full grown paints quite a different picture than the picture from traditional popular art of Noah and some very large animals poking their heads out of a tiny, obviously cramped boat. Cool
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:07 am
The naval terms "ton" and "tonnage" refer to capacity and not to weight. A vessel of 3 million cubic feet (you're retailin' stretchers here, by the way), would be a vessel of only 30,000 tons. The ore ship Edmund Fitzgerald, celebrated in song by Gordon Lightfoot, was a vessel of 80,000 tons--which is to say, it had a capacity of 8 million cubic feet. A vessel of that size could not begin to hold all of the species known on earth now, along with all species currently identified as having once existed and now extinct, in addition to the necessary fodder to keep them alive. I wasn't even going to embarrass you with the entire topic of caging them and stowing the cages.

While we're at it, do you care to explain how all of these critters were rounded up and stowed, and how all of the necessary fodder was garnered and stowed? All in forty days remember, and during heavy rains. (Don't try to claim they weren't heavy rains, because then we'll be obliged to revisit your contention about how high the waters rose.)

You have some real problems, though, with the construction of wooden ships. The United States Ship Constitution, a frigate first put into service with the United States Navy in 1798, now rests in Boston as a national treasure (The United States Navy's site for Constitution). This frigate is 204 feet in length, is just over 43 feet at the beam, and draws almost 23 feet at the stern--considerably smaller than the laughably absurd vessel you are contending for (The Constitution Museum, source for the dimensions).

Now one of the genius aspects of American frigates built in the 1790s and thereafter were the provisions to prevent hogging. Hogging is a liability of all wooden ships. Even small coastal vessels which plied relatively calm intercoastal waters were subject to hogging, which created serious dangers in foul weather--can you imagine fouler weather than that which results in a planet-wide cataclysmic flood? Constitution and all the wooden ships commissioned by Congress, though, had taken a positive step to reduce hogging to a manageable problem. Hogging occurs because the vessel bows up in the middle, a natural consequence of weighing so much from the many tons of wood used to build the vessel. Referring to the first named source, Constitution was built with the timber of nearly 2000 trees. That suggests far more trees would be needed to create a wooden behemoth on the scale you claim. How many sons did you say old Noah had? I mean, forty days and nights, and all those critters to round up in the driving rain, and all that fodder to get to a dry place before it rots in the driving rain--and on top of that, literally thousands of trees to be felled, and planed with hand adzes, and joined with the hand tools which constituted the technology of the day--are you sure this ain't another one of your stretchers?

Constitution and all such frigates and line-of-battle-ships built for the United States Navy in the era of wooden ships solved the hogging problem by the use of transverse supports built into and across the strakes (the upright, solid oak beams to which the outer planks are attached) at angles to the centerline described by the keel and keelson. Built with the 26" oak which was standard in Constitution and all such ships (and which produced beams much thicker than 26" inches--they were combined to form larger structures), these support structures greatly reduced the carrying capacity of the hull. That's not a problem with a warship, which is not designed to carry cargo--it just needs to carry food for the crew and powder and shot, which is a trifling requirement--crew quarters by far accounted for the most of hull space.

To get back to hogging, such structures were not used in cargo ships, because of the drastic reduction of cargo capacity. This means that in heavy weather, they could "start" their hulls (meaning the planks attached to the strakes separate, and the vessel begins to ship water in a truly alarming fashion) due to hogging. For that reason, cargo vessels routinely foundered in storms. Even when they survived, it was usually because they ran for port, or, in extremis, intentionally beached the vessel on a lee shore, in order to save the cargo, and the ship be damned. Cargo vessels usually did not last even as much as ten years in constant service, and although problems such as the toredo were significant, hogging was the single most important cause of wooden vessels becoming unsound and unsafe.

Now certainly your "ark" did not need to last ten years. But it did need to survive the truly horrendous storms which would be necessary to account for the rise in sea level the bobble thumpers commonly refer to. There would be no port to run to, and no lee shore on which to ground, if hogging caused the hull to start. With a vessel which was anywhere from two to three times the length and as much larger at the beam, but which was nowhere near as deep at the keelson as the wooden vessels of the United States Navy, hogging would be a problem which assumed monunmental proportions, and precisely because it obviously did not draw nearly as much water proportional to its length and beam as a wooden warship of the United States Navy in that era. So if they had taken no provisions for hogging, they'd never have swum long enough (ships ares said to "swim" in cases in which they do not founder) to survive--or if they had provided against hogging, then they'd have drastically reduced the cargo capacity. Do you need to trot out another divine miracle at this point? I'll avert my eyes so as not to embarrass you.

Yes, that's why these things can get so embarrassing for the bobble thumpers. Not only do they not know jack sh!t about biology, and consistently show it--they don't know squat about naval architecture in wood vessels, and they show that, too ! ! !
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:37 am
real life wrote:
The use of cages and mostly smaller, younger (even infant) animals instead of full grown paints quite a different picture than the picture from traditional popular art of Noah and some very large animals poking their heads out of a tiny, obviously cramped boat. (emoticon removed in the interest of good taste)


I must admit, this was a real knee-slapper comin' just after the allegation about a mere one million cubic feet, only 10,000 tons, quite small, say, in comparison to Saratoga a decidedly small aircraft carrier of the era of the Second World War. (A "London Naval Treaty" era ship, originally laid down as a cruiser, at 33,000 tons it exceed treaty limitations, and was converted to a carrier--CV3, it was one of our first carriers.)

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv03-saratoga/sara1935landing.jpg

Were you to try to tell me that ship could hold a pair of every critter, even juveniles, i'd say you were tryin' to pass off another stretcher.

But the humerous thing is your reference to images of the alleged ark. Here's some samples of the kind of image the bobble crowd go in for:

http://motivate.maths.org/conferences/conf68/Images/NoahsArk.jpg

Just kinda gives ya the warm fuzzies, don't it?

http://www.is.svitonline.com/sailor/gall/pict/Noah's%20Ark.jpg

Oh Man ! ! ! The weather don't look good in that one, bound to be some fatal hogging in seas like that ! ! !

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/ark-with-house.jpg

Now this one's cool, it compars the ark to a one story house (kinda small one, but let's not quibble). How many trees you suppose those boys cut down and worked with hand tools to make that?

http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/Pix/arksize.gif

This is the one i love, though. No doubt about it, naval architecture has been declared scripturally irrelevant!

All in all, that ark story is sunk (pun intended) at the outsets. I'd say it constitutes one of the biggest stretchers you've yet attempted to foist upon us.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:39 am
You know, you've neglected another question i had for ya earlier on. What about the birds? How did they survive for the alleged 371 days? What did they eat? Where did they roost? Surely not on the Ark, that incestuos crew had all they could handle with the things that crawl upon the earth.

Guess you'll be needing a whole heap of divine intervention on that one, too.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:48 am
Why the puzzle? God used stop-motion photography to make it appear that the builders of the ark were scurring around like rats, sawing down trees (now where was this huge forest in the Mid-East?). fabricating planks and putting it together with what? Two penny nails?

The more one thinks about it, the more absurdely funny it becomes. Laughing Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:51 am
There's a thought experiment to which scientists joking refer as the "Santa Claus theorem." Bascially, it states that it isn't necessary to examine reindeer propulsion systems or elven sweat shops at the North Pole to refute the Santa Claus hypothesis. All that is necessary is a little math. If Santa Claus were able to instantaneously travel from house to house, and only required one second to slip down the chimbly (if there were one) and put out the presents, in the time available to him from sundown on Christmas Eve until sunup on Christmas day, he wouldn't be able to cover a decent portion of North America, nevermind Europe. Case closed, no Santa Claus.

Now let's examine this Noah thing. One old geezer, three disrespectful sons (OK, OK, only one of 'em was badmouthing the old man--he was the one the Africans descend from right?). Now, erring on the side of generosity to your thesis, Old Noah and the boys have got to cut down 4000 trees (remember, your ark is more than twice the size of Constitution at a conservative estimate), strip 'em, haul 'em to the sawyer pit and cut planks, plane 'em down with an adze, nevermind setting up the keel and the strakes, and joining the planks--all in forty days and nights. That's 25 trees per man, per day. No sleep for the wicked, eh? Tempers musta been gettin' mighty raw by the end of the first week.

I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 09:52 am
I was just gettin' to that part, LW . . .
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 10:07 am
Hi Setanta,

Actually the story of Noah seems to indicate that Noah was given 120 years advance notice of the Flood.

Moses wrote:
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.






It would appear that Noah was not out in the rain during the 40 days at all, but was already in the ark.

Moses wrote:
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

6And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

7And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.





As for how the animals were obtained, I think I had mentioned to someone else in the thread that it appears that the animals came to Noah, not the other way around.

Moses wrote:
20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.


Now about the boat's construction, I'm no expert so I'm gonna tell you straight out that I don't know a thing about hogging. Perhaps someone with more expertise could answer that, but I could propose that perhaps the method and design of Noah's boat might have been quite different from what we might suppose. It's a good question though and I'd like to know more about it myself. Cool
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 10:11 am
Good luck, you're sunk before you begin. (I crack me up!)

Now we've got some old geezer over one hundred twenty years old, and his sons, of a commensurate age, building this wooden behemoth, and shepherding all the critters in, with all their provender for 371 days, and managing the whole lot for over a year, and never a seam in the vessel starts in the most horrendous storm ever alleged to have taken place.

Tell me another one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Apr, 2006 10:13 am
By the way, i am not claiming to be an expert on naval architecture, either. However, i am a student of history, and one to the longest abiding interests in history which i have is naval history.

I assert, without equivocation, that the vessel you're plumping for was simply not possible.

How did old Noah keep the secret from his neighbors for over a century? You know, people will talk.
0 Replies
 
 

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