Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:00 pm
Let's try a double negative prayer and see if we can up the efficacy factor Smile
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:00 pm
Pauligirl wrote:
real life wrote:


To call this a scientific test is ludicrous.

Were all of the sick who are compared with one another at the same degree of illness? Obviously not, some were much worse off at the beginning than others so you are not starting off with an equivalence in your test subjects.

Did each one of them undergo exactly the same medical procedures, take exactly the same medicines, and follow the same regimen as regards diet, exercise, cessation of smoking, etc. Again obviously not. Probably not two of them out of hundeds were alike.

Did each of the persons praying receive the same instructions regarding how to pray for the sick? Obviously not, they were from diverse religious groups and probably have a wide variance as to what is believed regarding prayer and specifically prayer for seriously ill persons, and each one followed their own manner of prayer.

They were not told to pray all in the same way, nor were they standardized in any manner.

So on both sides of the equation -- the sick and the pray-er --- you probably don't have any two alike, no standardization before or during the test, just the attempt afterward to draw a conclusion based on a faulty method.

You're gonna call this a 'scientific' test?


The new $2.4 million study, funded primarily by the John Templeton Foundation, was designed to overcome some of those shortcomings. Dusek and his colleagues divided 1,802 bypass patients at six hospitals into three groups. Two groups were uncertain whether they would be the subject of prayers. The third was told they would definitely be prayed for.

The researchers recruited two Catholic groups and one Protestant group to pray "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for 14 days for each patient, beginning the night before the surgery, using the patient's first name and the first initial of the last name.

Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers.

Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications.

Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033000902.html

discussion
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=72071&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Maybe the Catholics tilt their heads a different way from the Protestants.
P


The study apparently overcame none of the shortcomings that I cited.

There was little or no standardization on the pray-er side of the equation or on the patient side ( treatments, medication, diet, etc.)

It cannot seriously be considered to be 'scientifically rigorous'.

It is like throwing two baseball teams together to play, and claiming that they are evenly matched because they each have the same number of players. There's a little more to it than that. Laughing
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:02 pm
Chumly wrote:
Let's try a double negative prayer and see if we can up the efficacy factor Smile


Yeah right.

(A double positive that is a negative)Laughing
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:02 pm
real life wrote:
It cannot seriously be considered to be 'scientifically rigorous'.
At what point did you become a champion of the "scientifically rigorous" if I may ask?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:05 pm
Chumly wrote:
real life wrote:
It cannot seriously be considered to be 'scientifically rigorous'.
At what point did you become a champion of the "scientifically rigorous" if I may ask?


If you consider it a scientifically rigorous study, that could explain a lot, couldn't it?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:05 pm
aM i THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES THE GUT BUSTING HUMOR IN ALL THIS?

Somebody just paid a huge buck to test whether praying for peoples medical outcomes has any effect. I coulda told you for half the money.

Ok, Ive got this research proposal to test whether Santa prefers chocolate chip or snickerdoodle cookies when he visits our houses on Christmas eve.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:10 pm
real life wrote:
[The study apparently overcame none of the shortcomings that I cited.

There was little or no standardization on the pray-er side of the equation or on the patient side ( treatments, medication, diet, etc.)

It cannot seriously be considered to be 'scientifically rigorous'.

It is like throwing two baseball teams together to play, and claiming that they are evenly matched because they each have the same number of players. There's a little more to it than that. Laughing


I'm sure the Templeton Foundation will be happy to have your input. Laughing

http://www.templeton.org/index.asp
FOUNDATION MISSION
The mission of the John Templeton Foundation is to pursue new insights at the boundary between theology and science through a rigorous, open-minded and empirically focused methodology, drawing together talented representatives from a wide spectrum of fields of expertise. Using "the humble approach," the Foundation typically seeks to focus the methods and resources of scientific inquiry on topical areas which have spiritual and theological significance ranging across the disciplines from cosmology to healthcare. In the human sciences, the foundation supports programs, competitions, publications, and studies that promote character education and the exploration of positive values and purpose across the lifespan. It supports free enterprise education and development internationally through the Templeton Freedom Awards, new curriculum offerings, and other programs that encourage free-market principles.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:12 pm
I used to own some Franklin Templeton. It was a real dog.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:17 pm
real life wrote:
If you consider it a scientifically rigorous study, that could explain a lot, couldn't it?
Again I ask you, at what point did you become a champion of the "scientifically rigorous"?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:17 pm
Hey, it's only 7:16 PST here. What gives with the times on these posts? Are we now in a time warp?
Never mind, I just evolved into having a nice glass of Pinor Noir. Anyone want to join me?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:18 pm
farmerman wrote:
I used to own some Franklin Templeton. It was a real dog.
Index funds are your best bet.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:19 pm
(I think I'd better visit my profile -- my clock is now an hour off and daylight savings isn't until next week).
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 09:21 pm
That's better -- now I suppose I have to reset it for daylight time. I thought at first someone was trying to play God around here.

(It's still off three minutes from the atomic clock).
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 10:47 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Hey, it's only 7:16 PST here. What gives with the times on these posts? Are we now in a time warp?
Never mind, I just evolved into having a nice glass of Pinor Noir. Anyone want to join me?


Is the glass big enough for both of us?
P
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2006 10:48 pm
The John Templeton Foundation amounts to an enormously funded endeavor to validate religion's place in today's life through facillitating and publicizing academically valid, scientifially rigorous research. One might expect The Discovery Institute and ID-iocy might have no better freind. More on that later.

Several years ago, The John Templeton Foundation, spurred by inconclusive but seemingly, tantalizingly, hopefully, almost-there indications presented by earlier studies, poured resources into intercessory prayer research. Their hopes were high:

Quote:
OverviewThe Foundation seeks to promote a deeper understanding of the influence spirituality, beliefs and values can have on human health. By promoting collaboration and clinical research into the relationship between spirituality and health, and by documenting the positive medical aspects of spiritual practice, the Foundation hopes to contribute to the reintegration of faith into modern life.


(See also: The John Templeton Foundation: Spirituality & Healing in Modern Medicine, 2002 Mission Statement)

As now we know, The John Templeton Foundation found itself disappointed:

Quote:
The John Templeton Foundation: OFFICIAL STATEMENT


The Largest Study of Third-Party Remote Intercessory Prayer Suggests
Prayer Not Effective in Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery

The John Templeton Foundation was the major funder of the study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP). This project applied a large-scale controlled randomized research model to contribute to a growing number of scientific studies about prayer. Previous studies had attracted widespread public attention and discussion due to claims of positive health outcomes for distant intercessory prayer in which patients were unaware of being prayed for in the context of a research study ...


Oh, and The John Templeton Foundation on ID-iocy? Here you go - a bit of a long read, but amusing, as long as you're not "into that sort of nonsense":

Quote:
The John Templeton Foundation: Official statement on the false and misleading information published in the Wall Street Journal November 14

By Charles L. Harper, Jr., Senior Vice President, John Templeton Foundation.

On November 14, the WSJ ran a front page story mentioning the John Templeton Foundation in a way suggesting that the Foundation has been a concerted patron and sponsor of the so-called Intelligent Design ("ID") position (such as is associated with the Seattle-based Discovery Institute and the writers Philip Johnson, William Dembski, Michael Behe and others). This is false information. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The John Templeton Foundation has provided tens of millions of dollars in support to research academics who are critical of the anti-evolution ID position. Any careful and factual analysis of actual events will find that the John Templeton Foundation has been in fact the chief sponsor of university courses, lectures and academic research which variously have argued against the anti-evolution "ID" position. It is scandalous for a distinguished paper to misinform the public in this way.

We currently are preparing a further appendix to this statement to document a number of major programs of the John Templeton Foundation which are fundamentally critical of the characteristic "ID" position of critique of the basic scientific facts and logics of modern evolutionary biology. For example, for almost a decade the John Templeton Foundation has been the major supporter of a substantial program at the headquarters of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), one of the chief focus activities of which has been informing the public of the weakness of the ID position on modern evolutionary biology. (see: http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/ ) This program was founded under the advice and guidance of the prominent evolutionary biologist Francisco Ayala when he was President of the AAAS, and was also supported by Stephen Jay Gould under his Presidency.

The membership of the John Templeton Foundation's Advisory Boards and Board of Trustees read as an international honor roll of the distinguished critics of the ID position. The Templeton Foundation employs rigorous processes of review using standard peer review and judging panels by distinguished experts. However, the Templeton Foundation refuses in its programs to blacklist scholars based on their ideological positions. We sponsor research and teaching across a very wide range of positions, believing in the value of widespread debate and engagement with important and controversial issues, including that of modern evolutionary biology and the debates over its meaning and philosophical significance such as are particularly intense in this country at this time.

Blacklisting is ethically inappropriate in academic contexts. The Foundation believes that proper academic adjudication of important and controversial issues is not by censorship but rather by open scholarly debate and consideration of positions and arguments on the merits or lack thereof. Research scholarship does not proceed by processes of censorship and inhibition of debate. Rather, the best contribution a philanthropic organization can make is to support and promote research and rigorous debate. Consequently, it is true therefore that Templeton Foundation funding support from time-to-time will have been used by some scholars promoting an ID position whose proposals have passed muster in independently judged review panels. This is entirely appropriate in cases where competitive review panels have found merit in course proposals and have awarded grants. Professors who are winners of Foundation grants are not kept under ideological review for purposes of blacklisting but are free to pursue and debate ideas as they see fit.

What is entirely false and misleading is the way in which the Foundation has been portrayed to have been in basic support of the ID position, when on balance the precise opposite is actually the case.

The Templeton Foundation has made several thousand grants to university researchers, the vast majority of whom have been critical of the anti-science aspect of ID's critique of modern evolutionary biology. The author selectively represented only about one tenth of one percent of these awards. It would have been responsible for the author of today's WSJ article to have reported actual and contextually accurate facts to the public. The WSJ has contributed to misinformation and public misunderstanding of an important national debate by selective, biased reporting.

For example, consider the following. A University of Washington based research astronomer, Guillermo Gonzalez, was cited in the article as an ID advocate supported with $58,000 in grants from the John Templeton Foundation. Professor Gonzalez was a grant winner in an international academic research grants competition we sponsored in 1999. This competition was named the Cosmology and Research Project (http://www.templeton.org/cftrp/ ). It was a physics and astrophysics program. It had nothing to do with evolutionary biology. It was run as an independent grants competition by a research physicist based at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton. Its independent panel of extremely distinguished academic judges included Michael Ruse, arguably the most powerfully insightful US-based critic of the ID position. (http://www.fsu.edu/~philo/people/faculty/mruse.html ). Among the winners of this open international grants competition (See: http://www.templeton.org/cftrp/winners.html ) were a team at Cambridge University including the current President of the Royal Society of London, Sir Martin Rees, along with several other research scientists well-known as leaders in the field of modern cosmology. Professor Gonzalez submitted a winning proposal on the topic: Fine-Tuning of Local Astronomical Parameters for Habitability and Measurability. His co-investigators were world-renowned researchers in the fields of Astrophysics and Planetary Science based at the University of Washington. His research was well-designed to address an interesting and vital technical debate in astrophysics over the range of planetary "habitability" in the Galaxy.

Yet, the WSJ article suggests that JTF supported anti-evolution ID activity via this grant. Not so. It is true that Professor Gonzalez has since become affiliated with the Discovery Institute. We at the John Templeton Foundation certainly do not think this is a wise association. Gonzalez received a grant for astronomy research in a fair competition. We have no regrets nor would we seek to rescind our support simply based on his ideological affiliations.

We emphatically oppose any impact of this article, whether intended or not, to fan into flame a politicized ethos on university campuses. It matters not at all that the Foundation itself vigorously disagrees with the ID position. We fully support the fundamental right of university faculty to differ from mainstream views. University campuses are precisely the place where important debates involving minority views should be aired.

Indeed, it should clearly be recognized that some perspectives that scholars associated with the ID movement have brought to scholarly attention involve matters of very considerable public importance. ID scholars have been prominent critics of the abuse of evolutionary biology today by prominent philosophical interpreters arguing for modern science to be considered as if it provided a clear coherent scientific foundation for philosophical atheism. (Which it most certainly is not: such grandstanding does science a grave disservice in the United States). They also have most unfashionably, but importantly, brought to attention the catastrophic abuse of evolutionary biology by Nazi intellectuals in the 1930's and 1940's in support of racist "master race" eugenics, leading clearly and directly to the justification of genocide against the Jews. Such debates are important. They should not be suppressed. And we at the John Templeton Foundation will hold to our no-blacklisting policy. We will not distort standard proper open and fair philanthropic practices in the direction of ideological policing.

We believe the public is best served when it has the opportunity to be informed accurately of the actual state of affairs and debate. We deeply regret the negative implications about the John Templeton Foundation that were created by the WSJ article. The facts will show that in nearly every case, Templeton Foundation money has supported critics rather than proponents of the anti-evolution ID position. The John Templeton Foundation invites any responsible and honest scholar or journalistic reporter to check this assertion.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 06:33 am
timberlandko wrote:
Pauligirl wrote:
Science gave us airplanes and skyscrapers; but it took religion to bring them together.


Gotta love Captain Obvious

Cheese Mr. Green


Thanks, Boss, i'm gonna use that . . .

*****************************************

Even by the standards of this pathetic thread, that's some diversion goin' on here . . .
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 08:42 am
Aha! But praying for oneself to recover can be the same as meditating and lower stress. There are also studies that highly stressed individuals do not heal as rapidly nor as well. Of course, there are many other ways to lower stress including Bio-Feedback. Someone else praying for one's recovery isn't going to work any better than my other example, praying that your football team will win the big game.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 10:06 am
vol_fan06 wrote:
thanks for responding. Before anybody gets any ideas about my intents. I simply wanted to know and see what people believed in evolution. we are all entitled to what we believe.


I think a way long time ago I might have made a comment or two in here. However, I can't honestly remember. I don't believe in evolution. I think it's a crock of bolgna. I wish I had enough energy to read what... 800 pages or so of posts, but I don't. So I'll just say I'm not buying it.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 10:10 am
Never seen a crock full of "bolgna," but this is typical of so many people -- no energy to actually read about evolution but quick to pass an opinion of it. Typical.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 10:12 am
well I'm not going to read 800 pages worth of people's opinions of it. Call it what you will... answer me this if you will... If we "evolved" from apes, why are there still apes?
0 Replies
 
 

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