Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 06:42 am
undone
Quote:
farmerman,

literal. I know you probably have tons of evidence to prove that it is fabricated and that the different legends were simply passed through oral tradition from one civilization to another all over the world. If it is really that important for you to try to convert me to atheism, which requires no belief in a god and therefor will result in everyone becoming nothing after death, then write what you want.


Here we have the crux of the biscuit. The bible-thumpers are convinced that a theory of evolution is a canard, a trojan horse by which the legions of horrid, pestilential and vile atheists who lurk in the shawdows of every happy meadow will seek to destroy the faithful and their religion. It is very important for the demagogues of religion to convince the faithful of this, because it is then much easier to shut of dangerous questioning which might throw too much of a glare upon the nonsense which is concommitant with all organized religions.

Unfortunately, there are many people who call themselves atheists, shout it from the rooftops, as it were, and who are in fact anti-theists, who make a god of their apostasy, and make science their scripture. My experience of them is that they understand science about as thoroughly as bible-thumpers understand the cultural antecedants of the middle east. They have their own handful of demagogues who manipulate them shamelessly to their own modest, personal profit (atheism does not pay like that old time religion--which is truly a gold mine), and providing them their "atheist" talking points at a host of sites every bit as shabby and ludicrous as those which the bible-thumpers frequent.

In fact, anyone who is truly an atheist, is truly without god, which includes not setting science up as an idol to be worshipped, doesn't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes, and has no interest in converting anyone to anything. People who wish plausible and well-founded scientific hypotheses such as theory of evolution to be the foundation of scientific education feel that way because science has proven the best means of investigating the cosmos which we inhabit, regardless of how one asserts it came into existence. One of the reasons the more clever of the bible-thumpers trot out the issue of cosmic origins is that it is a clever tactic to associate in the minds of the credulous the notion that a theory of evolution deals in cosmic origins, and that it is part and parcel of a vile "atheist" plot to destroy the worship of the god of the bible-thumpers fathers.

A theory of evolution does not rely upon any description of cosmic origins, and is perfectly acceptable to millions, perhaps even billions of people on this planet who have profound and devout religious scruples. A theory of evolution clashes with the bible thumping literalists, however, because if posits an earth far, far older than Bishop Ussher's six thousand odd years (very odd years, indeed). For literalists, every further confirming aspect of geology, paeleontology, archaeology and paeleo-archaeology, is another potential nail in the coffin of Bishop Ussher's exegesis, and therefore another assault on the temple in which the holy of holies resides--biblical scripture.

Small wonder that when the dust briefly settles from time to time, so many well-meaning people are confused.
0 Replies
 
TheUndonePoet
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:58 am
farmerman,

I apologize. I certainly realize they are not one in the same. Simply a mistake in the intention of my message. As far as my spelling, you are right I rarely ever proof read what I write in here, because I bounce from forum to forum to more important projects and don't have time. If that is any sort of a problem for you, I suggest you simply skip my posts.


The...........
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 09:08 am
Pauligirl wrote:
real life wrote:


Have you ever experienced a flood, Pauligirl?

You generally don't have time to build a raft. Laughing

Floods appear quickly and with very little warning.

But I appreciate the humor break.


Actually, yes I have. Hurricane Floyd caused extensive flooding in NC and in places, it was slow. You can get slow floods as the ground saturates and streams fill and overflow. Took 3 days for it to creep up close to my mom's house.

"The magnitude of the flooding disaster became apparent in the hours and days after the heaviest rains passed. With no place for water to drain through saturated soils or overfilled rivers, floodwaters backed up into streets, homes, farms, businesses, and interstate highways. The waters rose quickly in some areas, more slowly in others. Many of the flood victims were taken by surprise -- some were asleep in their beds when they were awakened by the sensation of water on their backs. Others dealt with the worst flooding days after the storm when rivers finally reached their crests. Along Floyd's path and across at least a dozen Tar Heel counties, an epic flood held the entire population in its clutches."
http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/hurricanes/nc_floyd.html

So, depends on the source of the flooding as to whether it's fast or slow.
P



OK, so did any of the folks in the areas where the water took several days to rise take that time to build a raft in order to escape?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 01:54 pm
Real

Civilization at that time was on two large rivers; the Euphrates and Tigris. Guess what was on those rivers; boats and rafts. They were used by merchants for commerce. There never was a boat built specifically for the Flood.

http://www.flood-myth.com/faq.htm

Most of the Flood story found in the Bible is fiction. It boggles my mind to think there are people today that think this planet was covered with 30,000 feet of water.

Where did the water go? Did God open up a drain hole and it all poured into the center of the earth?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 02:05 pm
xingu, As we all know by now, common sense and logic are ignored when religionists argue their POV. They look for isolated incidences to prove a universal truth disregarding geological science and every other kind of science most of us are familiar with today. They are stuck with ideas developed two thousand years ago no matter how many ways they have been proven to be fictional.
0 Replies
 
chr42690
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
xingu, As we all know by now, common sense and logic are ignored when religionists argue their POV. They look for isolated incidences to prove a universal truth disregarding geological science and every other kind of science most of us are familiar with today. They are stuck with ideas developed two thousand years ago no matter how many ways they have been proven to be fictional.


Actually, scientists have also ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports. I think that scientists are less open-minded than "religionists". Christianity is not a religion because religions require you to do something in order to go to Paradise but Christianity only requires that you accept Jesus Christ and confess your sins.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:30 pm
xingu wrote:
Real

Civilization at that time was on two large rivers; the Euphrates and Tigris. Guess what was on those rivers; boats and rafts. They were used by merchants for commerce. There never was a boat built specifically for the Flood.

http://www.flood-myth.com/faq.htm

Most of the Flood story found in the Bible is fiction. It boggles my mind to think there are people today that think this planet was covered with 30,000 feet of water.

Where did the water go? Did God open up a drain hole and it all poured into the center of the earth?


Hi Xingu,

Nearly every locale on the globe, including Mt. Everest was once underwater. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3047313.stm where it indicates that at the very top of the worlds highest mountain are sedimentary rocks and coral.

Obviously the mountain wasn't necessarily at the height it is today when this part of it was formed :wink:

So to say that the globe had to be covered with 30,000 feet of water is simply incorrect.

Did the writer of Genesis just 'get lucky' that there are sedimentary strata on Everest?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:35 pm
chr wrote:
Actually, scientists have also ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports. I think that scientists are less open-minded than "religionists".

Show us where scientists have ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports? It sounds like a straw man argument to me.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:44 pm
chr42690 wrote:
Christianity is not a religion because religions require you to do something in order to go to Paradise but Christianity only requires that you accept Jesus Christ and confess your sins.

Do you want to tell him or should I?
pssst buddy. Accepting jebus and confessing is doing stuff in order to 'go to pair-o-dice'
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:55 pm
In the English language, "requirement to accept jesus" is "something." Any requirement is "something."

You wrote: "Christianity is not a religion because religions require you to do something in order to go to Paradise..."
0 Replies
 
chr42690
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 04:31 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
chr wrote:
Actually, scientists have also ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports. I think that scientists are less open-minded than "religionists".

Show us where scientists have ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports? It sounds like a straw man argument to me.


Scientists have not explained the Cambrian Explosion.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 04:34 pm
Translation: What i don't understand can't be reasonable; what can't be explained by science allows me to allege my imaginary friend superstition to be the prime and eternal cause.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:17 pm
chr wrote:
Scientists have not explained the Cambrian Explosion.


From Wikipedia:
The Cambrian explosion refers to the geologically sudden appearance of complex multi-cellular macroscopic organisms between roughly 542 and 530 million years ago (mya). This period marks a sharp transition in the fossil record with the appearance of the earliest members of many phyla of metazoans (multicellular animals). The "explosive" appearanceMore recent microfossil finds have shown "Pre-Cambrian" life consisting of more than single-celled organisms or simple diploblastic fauna. In 1994, phosphatized triploblastic embryos were discovered in rocks from southern China (Xiao et al. 1998). Evidence for Ediacaran triploblasts was available long before this discovery.

What is it about science that you fail to understand? Science tries to explain phenomenon from what they can observe and replicate. They make assumptions from current knowledge that is based on evidence available at the time. If future techology proves otherwise, they will correct their assumptions. Science is a method by which it corrects itself as more information becomes available.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:22 pm
chr42690 wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
chr wrote:
Actually, scientists have also ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports. I think that scientists are less open-minded than "religionists".

Show us where scientists have ommitted many facts against evolution in their reports? It sounds like a straw man argument to me.


Scientists have not explained the Cambrian Explosion.


That objection itself is an argument from ignorance, simply pure nonsense. It generally is accepted within the scientific community that the "Cambrian Explosion" was the natural result of the confluence of a number of natural conditions and processes.

To begin with, the fossil record shows rather clearly that immediately prior to the Cambrian, or roughly 600MYA, diversification was well under way. The bacteria, algae and plankton that had been developing for some 3 Billion-plus years gave rise to the Ediacaran fauna, far more complex life forms than previously had been seen. That the fossil record of these and their predecessors may be sparse is hardly surprising in that by and large these were soft-celled organisms, not particularly condusive to fossilization. None the less, the trendline is observable, and consistent. With accellerated diversity, naturally came increased genetic differentiation, a growing toolkit, as it were, for evolutionary development.

Over the 70 to 100 million years spanning the Precambrian into the Cambrian, atmospheric oxygen increased exponentially, the result of increased clorophylic plantlife, with both the higher atmospheric oxygen ratio and the abundance of food provided by that plantlife affording opportunity for rapid development and expansion of other life forms, particularly animal life forms. With the Precambrian toolkit at their disposal, these emergent life forms had nowhere to go but upward and onward; any genetic change that expressed in manner beneficial to its host species was sure to flourish, even if only briefly, or only in a particular, relatively short-term niche. Such things as skeletons (endo and ecto) and concomitant musculature become more and more common, bilateral symetry comes to dominate. The consequent "natural experimentation" left a mounting fossil record of tries that almost, but not quite, "made it", and traces directly onward and upward to the life forms extant today.

There is discussion and differing opinion within the scientific community concerning the minutiae of the mechanics of the process, but there is no legitimate academic or scientific dispute concerning the process itself.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:29 pm
Hi Real

Quote:
Nearly every locale on the globe, including Mt. Everest was once underwater. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3047313.stm where it indicates that at the very top of the worlds highest mountain are sedimentary rocks and coral.


If you understood how mountains were created you would know why there is sedimentary rock on top of them. It has nothing to do with a flood.

The Adirondacks in New York are not covered by sedimentary rock? Why?

Quote:
Obviously the mountain wasn't necessarily at the height it is today when this part of it was formed

So to say that the globe had to be covered with 30,000 feet of water is simply incorrect.

Did the writer of Genesis just 'get lucky' that there are sedimentary strata on Everest?


Your logic is faulty here. Your telling us that sediment rock on top of Everest proves the flood. Then you claim the mountain didn't exist. You back up your argument with an article that says the top of Everest was a shallow sea bottom 400 million years ago. That's how the limestone was created. That's a far different scenario than a flood producing limestone with fossils.

You claim the limestone on top of Everest is proof that the flood waters covered the earth. Can you tell me how to produce limestone embedded with fossils in four months? Why haven't any of your creationist "scientist" been able to preform this feat to prove to the world that the flood story is true?

You claim Everest was not 29,000 feet 4,300 years ago. How high was Everest when the Flood occurred? Give us evidence that it was not at its present height 4,300 years ago.

How deep were the flood waters above the current sea level? 10,000 feet? 15,000? 20,000? Do you have any idea? Do you have any evidence?

Can you please tell me where the drain hole is located? I would like to see where all the water drained into the earth. It had to be above sea level since the ocean basins didn't empty out.

Can you back any of your claims up with scientific evidence or do you just pull your "facts" out of mid air?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:41 pm
ci

Quote:
xingu, As we all know by now, common sense and logic are ignored when religionists argue their POV. They look for isolated incidences to prove a universal truth disregarding geological science and every other kind of science most of us are familiar with today. They are stuck with ideas developed two thousand years ago no matter how many ways they have been proven to be fictional
.

Agree, but sometimes I get some time to kill so I like to see if they can back up any of their claims with hard facts. All you can get from them is unsupported speculation and "funny facts"; like Mt. Everest was lower 4,300 years ago. It's amazing that in the last few thousand years mountains just jumped up thousands, if not tens of thousands of feet or how limestone can be produced in four months and soft muddy sediment can instantaneously tune into harden rock.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:45 pm
According to the MountEverest-dot-net history page, Mount Everest formed about 60 million years ago. Kind of shoots the whole 6000+ year exegesis of Bishop Ussher right in the ass. We are not dealing with rational arguments in cases like these.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:54 pm
By any credible estimate of which I am aware, the melting of both polar ice caps and of all glaciers and other land-borne snow and ice cover would produce a volume of water sufficient to raise mean global sea level by something between 70 and 100 meters (the range is due to ambiguities inherent to estimating the density of archaic ice - it may, due to compression, contain more water than contemporary ice, volume for volume). Even at the upper limit, that hardly is sufficient to inundate the planet's landmass more than a few score to a few hundred miles inland from current coastlines depending on local topography, let alone overtop significant mountain ranges.
0 Replies
 
chr42690
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 07:15 pm
So the Cambrian Explosion shows severe faults with the theory of evolution? How could there be such a large jump in the fossil record?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 07:17 pm
Such a question indicates its presenter has a problem with reading comprehension.
0 Replies
 
 

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