rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 07:50 am
farmerman wrote:
well, theres those human tracks alongside dinosaur foot prints in the Paluxy River shales, and theres that cave wall picture of a "dinosaur" in Altamira caves.


Smile

Hmmm, well in that case, let me rephrase, "Nothing concurs with a young earth hypothesis except a fertile imagination".
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 11:57 am
Here's a "scientist" looking for a "creator."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060316.wxtheory16/BNStory/International/home


God's scientist receives supreme award
Richest grant goes to cosmologist who says religion best explains laws of universe

MICHAEL VALPY
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
CambridgeUniversity cosmologist and mathematician John Barrow was awarded $1.6-million yesterday to do research into whether God is sitting at the control panel behind the Theory of Everything about the universe.

He won the 2006 Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities, the world's richest individual scholarly research grant. Its initiator, mutual-fund investor Sir John Templeton, specified that it be worth more than the Nobel Prize (which is worth about $1.5-million) so the media would take it seriously.

Dr. Barrow, 53, author of 17 books and one play (about infinity), believes that monotheistic religious thought about God and creation offers a better explanation than anything else, including most science, of how the universe works.

aPs="boxR"; var boxRAC = fnTdo('a'+'ai',300,250,ai,'j',nc); He is one of the leading proponents of the anthropic principle of the universe, the dials-set-right idea -- the notion that the universe is, in Goldilocks's words, "just right" for life on Earth. Because if it were a little bigger or smaller, a little colder or warmer, a little younger or older, then life wouldn't exist.

His ideas and research fit to a T many theologians' underlying notions of the new cosmology, the idea that, because the universe did not create itself, it must have a cause separate from itself. Or as one of them, reading Dr. Barrow's acceptance speech for his award, said admiringly: "I wish I'd said that."

Dr. Barrow is director of Cambridge's Millennium Mathematics Project and Gresham professor of astronomy at London's GreshamCollege, the world's oldest science professorship, founded in 1596.

He has been a popular writer in Britain since the publication of his 1986 book, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, co-authored with mathematician Frank Tipler, and has lectured on cosmology at the Venice Film Festival, 10 Downing St., Windsor Castle and the Vatican.

His most recent book is The Infinite Book: A Short Guide to the Boundless, Timeless and Endless. His 2002 play, Infinities, was a smash hit for the two seasons it ran at Milan's La Scala.

Dr. Barrow said in an interview yesterday he is not sure yet how he will use the money. He also said he doesn't think the U.S.-based John Templeton Foundation, which oversees selection of the award's annual winner, had any particular expectations of what research he would do.

The essence of his research, as he put it, is the quest for the simple laws -- "perhaps just one law" -- that lie behind all the complexities of the universe, "like the laws of nature that are so impressively, beautifully symmetrical, but can have such highly irregular, asymmetrical outcomes."

What has attracted the Templeton Foundation is his engagement with the structure of the universe and its laws that make life possible, as well as the multidisciplinary perspectives he has developed on the limits of scientific explanation and the mysteries of nothingness and infinity.

"Over the past 75 years," he says, "astronomers have illuminated the vault of the heavens in a completely unexpected way."

They have found, he says, a universe not only bigger than was once thought, but getting bigger. They have found that life on Earth comprises complicated atoms of carbon, nitrogen and oxygen whose nuclei took almost 10 billion years to be formed by "stellar alchemy" before being blasted through the universe by the explosions of dying stars.

"So you begin to understand why it is no surprise that the universe seems so big and so old. It takes nearly 10 billion years to make the building blocks of living complexity in the stars and, because the universe is expanding, it must be at least 10 billion light years in size. We could not exist in a universe that was significantly smaller.

"The vastness of the universe is often cited as evidence for the extreme likelihood of life elsewhere. [But] while there may be life, even conscious life, elsewhere, sheer size is not compelling. The universe needs to be billions of light years in size just to support one lonely outpost of life."

Dr. Barrow says that astronomy's revelations -- that a big, old, dark, cold universe with its planets and stars and galaxies separated by vast distances is necessary for the creation and existence of pinpricks of life -- have "transformed the simple-minded, life-averse, meaningless universe of the skeptical philosophers.

"It breathes new life into so many religious questions of ultimate concern and never-ending fascination. Many of the deepest and most engaging questions that we grapple with still about the nature of the universe have their origins in our purely religious quest for meaning.

"We see now how it is possible for a universe that displays unending complexity and exquisite structure to be governed by a few simple laws that are symmetrical and intelligible, laws which govern the most remarkable things in our universe -- populations of elementary 'particles' that are everywhere perfectly identical.

"There are some who say that just because we use our minds to appreciate the order and complexity of the universe around us, there is nothing more to that order than what is imposed by the human mind. That is a serious misjudgment
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 01:41 pm
Hell, I could do that for a million two fiddy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 01:44 pm
Who wouldn't? The answer is so obvious, a ten year old child could accomplish the same final result.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 08:34 pm
Quote:
His ideas and research fit to a T many theologians' underlying notions of the new cosmology, the idea that, because the universe did not create itself

How would anyone know if the universe created itself or not being as how no one knows how it was created, other than the BB.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:13 pm
Quote:
Dr. Barrow, 53, author of 17 books and one play (about infinity), believes that monotheistic religious thought about God and creation offers a better explanation than anything else, including most science, of how the universe works.


Well yeah. "By magic" doesn't really require much effort. It's the "best" explanation for anything you like, and it's definitely the easiest.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:17 pm
EorI, That's why I wrote earlier:
Who wouldn't? The answer is so obvious, a ten year old child could accomplish the same final result.

_________________
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:40 pm
Yeah, I guess you did C.I. Sorry.

This guy also seems to be one of those who think the existence of a law requires a law-inventor...which it doesn't.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 11:01 pm
Plantinga is an interesting case - a Protestant, he holds the Theology Chair at Catholic Notre Dame University. He is widely respected among academicians and theologians for his theologic thinking ... which, of course, means nothing more than that he does nonsense well.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 11:28 pm
timber, That's my take on this whole show too! Barnham said "there's a sucker born every minute;" people's ignorance shows no bounds no matter what their "educational" level.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:56 am
Excerpt from a critique of Dr. Barrow:

Quote:
Barrow and Tipler on the Anthropic Principle vs. Divine Design
Dr. William Lane Craig

In their massive study The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, John Barrow and Frank Tipler provide the most comprehensive analysis to date of the so-called Anthropic Principle and its relation to the classic teleological argument for a Divine Designer of the cosmos. According to their analysis, the Anthropic Principle evolved out of the traditional design argument for God's existence, particularly one version of that argument, the eutaxiological version, which was based on the presence of discernable order and mutual harmony in nature in abstraction from any anthropocentric purpose being in view. Although Barrow and 'I'ipler believe that the Darwinian theory of evolution undermined biological, anthropocentric versions of the teleological argument, they contend that contemporary science has only served to accentuate the delicate balance, perceived in the eutaxiological version of that argument, of hightly improbable necessary conditions for the evolution and sustenance of intelligent life which obtain in the universe, and the bulk of their book is devoted to surveying the fields of physics and astrophysics, classical cosmology, quantum mechanics, and biochemistry to illustrate their point. These supply the evidence for what F. R. Tennant [1930], who coined the term anthropic, called 'wider teleology'.

Not that Barrow and Tipler are endorsing a design argument; on the contrary, although scientists hostile to teleology are apt to interpret their work as sympathetic to theism and although I have already seen this book cited by two prominent philosophers of religion in support of the teleological argument, the thrust of the book's argument is in the end anti-theistic. As Barrow and Tipler employ it, the Anthropic Principle is essentially an attempt to complete the job, begun by Darwinian evolution, of dismantling the teleological argument by showing that the appearance of design in the physical and cosmological quantities of the universe is just that: an appearance due to the self-selection factor imposed on our observations by our own existence. If Barrow and Tipler are correct, then the wider teleological argument of Tennant proves no more effective than the narrow teleological argument of his predecessors.

That brings us to a consideration of the Anthropic Principle itself. Barrow and Tipler distinguish several versions of the Principle, the most basic and least disputable being the Weak Anthropic Principle (WAP):

WAP: The observed values of all physical and cosmological quantities are not equally probable, but they take on values restricted by the requirement that there exist sites where carbon-based life can evolve and by the requirement that the Universe be old enough for it to have already done so. (p 15)

Barrow and Tipler regard WAP as 'in no way speculative or controversial' (p. 16), since it is 'just a restatement . . . of one of the most important and well established principles of science: that it is essential to take into account the limitations of one's measuring apparatus when interpreting one's observations' (p. 23). For example, if we were calculating the fraction of galaxies that lie within certain ranges of brightness, our observations would be biased toward the brighter ones, since we cannot see the dim ones so easily. Or again, a ratcatcher may say that all rats are bigger than six inches because that is the size of his traps. Similarly, any observed properties of the universe which may initially appear astonishingly improbable can only be seen in their true perspective after we have accounted for the fact that certain properties could not be observed by us, were they to obtain, because we can only observe those compatible with our own existence. 'The basic features of the Universe, including such properties as its shape, size, age, and laws of change must be observed to be of a type that allows the evolution of observers, for if intelligent life did not evolve in an otherwise possible universe, it is obvious that no one would be asking the reason for the observed shape, size, age, and so forth of the universe' (pp. 1-2). Thus, our own existence acts as a selection effect in assessing the various properties of the universe. For example, a life form which evolved on an earthlike planet 'must necessarily see the Universe to be at least several billion years old and ... several billion light years across,' for this is the time necessary for production of the elements essential to life and so forth (p. 3).

********************************************************
In any case, the move on the part of Anthropic philosophers to posit many worlds, even if viable, represents a significant concession because it implies that the popular use of the WAP to refute teleology in a universe whose properties are coextensive with the basic features of our universe is fallacious. In order to stave off the conclusion of a Designer, the Anthropic philosopher must take the metaphysically speculative step of embracing a special kind of multiple universe scenario. That will hardly commend itself to some as any less objectionahle than theism.

We appear then to be confronted with two alternatives: posit either a cosmic Designer or an exhaustively random, infinite number of other worlds. Faced with these options, is not theism just as rational a choice as multiple worlds?

Barrow and Tipler demur, maintaining that 'careful thinkers' would not today 'jump so readily' to a Designer, for (i) the modern viewpoint stresses time's role in nature; but since an unfinished watch does not work, arguments based on omnipresent harmony have been abandoned for arguments based on co-present coincidences; and (ii) scientific models aim to be realistic, but are in fact only approximations of reality; so we hesitate to draw far-reaching conclusions about the nature of ultimate reality from models that are at some level inaccurate (p.30). But Barrow and Tipler seem unduly diffident here. A careful thinker will not readily jump to any conclusions, but why may he not infer a Divine Designer after a careful consideration of the evidence? Point (i) is misleading, since the operations of nature always work; at an earlier time nature is not like an unfinished watch, rather it is just a less complex watch. In any case, the most powerful design argument will appeal to both present adaptedness and co-present coincidences. Point (ii) loses much of its force in light of two considerations: (a) this is a condition that affects virtually all our knowledge, which is to say that it affects none of it in particular, so that our only recourse is simply to draw conclusions based on what we determine most accurately to reflect reality; fortunately, the evidence at issue here is rather concrete and so possesses a high degree of objectivity. (b) Barrow and Tipler do not feel compelled to exercise such restraint when proposing metaphysically speculative hut naturalistic accounts of the universe's basic features, e.g., their defense of the 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum physics or scenarios for the origin of the universe ex nihilo, which leads one to suspect that a double standard is being employed here.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:00 am
Ah, the Templeton Institute (or is it Foundation?). What would we do without it trying to reconcile science and religion?

Probably continue on with our lives. Nothing the Templeton Institute has ever done has ever affected us much.

I note that Dr. Barrow has no real biological qualifications, plus he's a mathematician (a group that is more likely to believe in God than any other group of "scientific" academics).
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:09 am
So true Wolf. Their idea of abstract thought involves minus signs. Ive always been suspicious about people whose job it is to work with balancing equations tell me that the universe is similarly symmetric.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:14 am
The argument is specious on the face of it. Perceptions of harmony in nature are nothing more than that--perceptions. They are projections of the human mind. Nature abhors "imbalance." Reactions tend entropically to subside, and the notion that there is a "harmony," or "balance" which gives evidence of a diety is actually nothing more than evidence of the human inability to devise neutral, objective language to describe the cosmos.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 09:24 am
farmerman wrote:
So true Wolf. Their idea of abstract thought involves minus signs. Ive always been suspicious about people whose job it is to work with balancing equations tell me that the universe is similarly symmetric.


Not only that, but the Universe is not symetric (at least with respect to matter/anti-matter), that's one of the big interesting mysteries hanging around out there.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 09:57 am
Dr. William Dembski, a leading proponent of intelligent design, is also primarily a mathematician.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 10:08 am
Good point, Wandel--the member "real life" has often pointed to a survey, a volutary source of information, about people who are alleged to be scientists, and who responded to the survey (some of them) by stating that they believe in a deity. The member "real life" translates this into a contention that almost 45% of "scientists" believe in a creation--which was not the substance of the question.

However, the professions listed show dieticians, industrial engineers--a host of disciplines which have no substantive basis in life or earth sciences, therefore making the resondants no more qualified to offer an opinion on a theory of evolution than any other reasonably well-eduacted individual. For the creationist crowd, hanging a "PhD' on someone's name, no matter how dubious the certifying institution, makes the person in the question expert--and the definition of "scienttist" which is thereafter applied is equally elastic.

When referring to Dembski, you be assured that creationists and IDers will emphasize the title of respect, and fail to mention the discipline in which Mr. Dembski was given his degree.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 11:01 am
I made a brief review of some essays by Dr. Dembski and Dr. Barrow. My impression is that both engage in metaphysical speculation and then try to support it by using mathematical probability formulas.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 11:05 am
Interestingly, math, particularly as applied through quantum theory, mandates other-than-directly-observable dimensions and implies, perhaps even entails, alternate universes, all the while remaining wholly consistent with and congruent to conventionally observed reality. At end, far from any argument for deism, math provides only confirmation that there remains much of nature yet to be understood.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 11:35 am
...or misunderstood by those that uses math to their own ends.
0 Replies
 
 

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