real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:01 pm
Setanta wrote:
Good point, Wandel--the member "real life" has often pointed to a survey, a volutary source of information, about people who are alleged to be scientists, and who responded to the survey (some of them) by stating that they believe in a deity. The member "real life" translates this into a contention that almost 45% of "scientists" believe in a creation--which was not the substance of the question.

However, the professions listed show dieticians, industrial engineers--a host of disciplines which have no substantive basis in life or earth sciences, therefore making the resondants no more qualified to offer an opinion on a theory of evolution than any other reasonably well-eduacted individual. For the creationist crowd, hanging a "PhD' on someone's name, no matter how dubious the certifying institution, makes the person in the question expert--and the definition of "scienttist" which is thereafter applied is equally elastic.

When referring to Dembski, you be assured that creationists and IDers will emphasize the title of respect, and fail to mention the discipline in which Mr. Dembski was given his degree.



Hi Setanta,

You've brought up this objection regarding 'dietitians' etc several times but I've never seen you document it.

The survey is cited by both National Geographic[/u] http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html and the journal Nature[/u] and apparently neither one of them have a problem with the qualifications of the respondents. So I wonder why you do?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:04 pm
I'm glad to see those who actually read in depth about evolution instead of listening to the religious curbside platitudes of some local church cleric who has read practically none of it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:19 pm
What the National Geographic article says is:
Evolution and Religion Can Coexist, Scientists Say

Nobody denies that evolution and religion can coexist. That's a far cry from religionists promoting creationism as equal to science. When religionists insist on teaching ID in science, that's where the problem exists. Creationism is not science. Comprende?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:20 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
I'm glad to see those who actually read in depth about evolution


Thank you Lightwiz. The reason I read it is because it's a fascinating topic.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:24 pm
Well, I added on an edit about how most people get their education about evolution. There are now three theological Christian higher education schools which have evolution in their curriculum.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:25 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
What the National Geographic article says is:
Evolution and Religion Can Coexist, Scientists Say

Nobody denies that evolution and religion can coexist. That's a far cry from religionists promoting creationism as equal to science. When religionists insist on teaching ID in science, that's where the problem exists. Creationism is not science. Comprende?


Hi CI,

Maybe if you had gotten past the title of the article, you would see why I cited the article. It refers to the survey that Setanta brought up.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:25 pm
I notice that real life links a National Geographic article, and not the source survey to which he refers. Furthermore, he sidesteps the issue of what question was actually asked in the survey to which he refers. Instead, he has constantly harped on a contention that 45% of scientists believe that man is the product of a creation. That is not, however, what even the vague and uninformative source to which he does refer has to say:

[qoute="The National Geographic"]Yet in a 2001 Gallup poll 45 percent of U.S. adults said they believe evolution has played no role in shaping humans. [/quote]

In fact, "real life's" alleged "45%" refers not to a survey in the journal Nature, rather, it refers to a Gallup poll in 2001 of adults in the United States. Even assuming standard technique by the Gallup organization which would assure a reasonable cross-section, and ignoring that we don't have the sample size and the question(s) asked--all that "real life" has shown is that 45% of adults in the United States hold such a viewponit. He has demonstrated absolutely nothing about the extent to which such an opinion is held by scientists, let alone among earth and life scientists, who are best qualified to judge. Timber has linked a comprehensive survey of life and earth scientists more than once. The memer "real life's" contentions about the Nature survey has been debunked more than once.

The member "real life" has provided no proof that 45% of genuinely credentialed scientists believe man to have been the product of a direct creation. It is an extraordinary claim--those who make such claims are obliged to provide the evidence, no one is obliged to disprove them.

The linked article, in the paragraph before the one i have already quoted, reads:

Quote:
One would be hard pressed to find a legitimate scientist today who does not believe in evolution. As laid out in a cover story in the November issue of National Geographic magazine, the scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming.


Therefore, in context, the article is pointing out that the general public does not take the same viewpoint as scientists. Later in the article, the author(s) state:

Quote:
In a 1997 survey in the science journal Nature


The member 'real life" knows what he is doing in linking an article about a survey, rather than the survey itself. He has proven nothing, and certainly not that 45% of scientists believe that man is the product of a direct creation. Even the article he links does not refer to the text of the questions asked, nor does it give the sample--and it is noteworthy that it refers only to those alleging themselves to be scientists in the United States, and with no reference to what branches of science they allege to pursue.

Very poor work, and disingenuous. Exactly what one expects from creationists who have little interest in the truth, but who are heavily invested in producing an image.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:31 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Well, I added on an edit about how most people get their education about evolution. There are now three theological Christian higher education schools which have evolution in their curriculum.


No, I could show you many more. Way more than you know.

There are a lot of folks, scientists as well as others who believe that God created the universe, the Earth, and all that is in it. They also believe that He probably used evolution as a process, and directed evolution to bring about the results that we see today.

The term for them is 'theistic evolutionists' , which I consider philosophically to be in the Intelligent Design camp because they do believe in creation by an Intelligent Designer. They may or may not recognize the term Intelligent Design as applying to their position, but if you look at what they believe it fits right in.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:34 pm
Christians rely on images all the time even though the bible speaks against it. The many conflicts they seem to live by is a testament to their inability at logic, ethics, and reality.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:41 pm
Setanta,

I think you have two surveys mixed up. I've cited both at various times. Maybe that is what has confused you.

One was by the journal Nature[/u].

The other was a poll of the membership of American Men and Women of Science, conducted by the organization.

Similar results by both surveys (40% in one, 45% in the other) were reported. Maybe you should research this before you comment on it further.

You still haven't shown any list of 'dietitians' and if you are upset with National Geographic[/u] being willing to cite the survey without providing every detail that you would like, then I suggest you write and tell them what a bunch of biased right wing crazies you think they are. Laughing
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:44 pm
Quote:
Few Biologists but Many Evangelicals Sign Anti-Evolution PetitionThe Discovery Institute says 128 signers hold degrees in the biological sciences and 26 in biochemistry. That leaves more than 350 nonbiologists, including Dr. Tour, Dr. Picard and Dr. Skell. Of the 128 biologists who signed, few conduct research that would directly address the question of what shaped the history of life.

Of the signers who are evangelical Christians, most defend their doubts on scientific grounds but also say that evolution runs against their religious beliefs.


(emphasis mine)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:58 pm
wandel, Thanks for the "evidence" to debunk rl's contention about "scientists."

Since that survey was taken in 2001, I just wonder how many of those same "scientists" would allow their names to be listed in a similar survey? Many are already a laughing stock of ignorant bible-thumpers without shame, ethics, or the proper education to sign such a document. They should be publicized in their local newspaper as frauds.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:59 pm
Hi Wandeljw,

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

The scientists that these two surveys are referring to are not anti-evolutionists for the most part -- they are theistic evolutionists.

I don't see a conflict with the article you posted, so maybe you can clarify what you are trying to say.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:11 pm
real life,

My impression (from reading the New York Times article) is that there is "spin" involved in surveys regarding evolution.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:18 pm
A little background may be in order for those of you scratching your heads and asking 'why is Real Life citing (theistic) evolutionists in a survey?'

This whole discussion stems from a part of the thread where Rosborne979 (primarily, with others occasionally) discussed with me (by myself usually, as I'm accustomed to Laughing) his view that only naturalistic processes were necessary to explain the origin of Man, the existence of the universe, etc.

I disagreed and cited the two surveys under discussion to show that a large number (not a majority, but a very sizable minority) of scientists might not necessarily agree with him.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:36 pm
wandeljw wrote:
real life,

My impression (from reading the New York Times article) is that there is "spin" involved in surveys regarding evolution.


If you think that the New York Times might show a tendency to 'spin' survey results, then you and I have an area of agreement that I wasn't previously aware of. Cool

I also have no doubt that every side in any debate tries to put it's best foot forward and present it's case in the most positive light that it can. Sometimes folks from either side might engage in hyperbole, or be somewhat sloppy in their details, I think most would acknowledge. That's just the failings of human nature. It's usually not intentional, that's just because we're fallible.

That's why I think the surveys cited by Nature[/i] and National Geographic[/i] and the American Men and Women of Science are particularly interesting because neither organization is known for being creation-friendly.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:37 pm
So, where is this link to this Nature article you prepose? Nature has an extensive online catalogue that can be searched for via PubMed. Provide the link, Mr. "Real Life" or at least the proper reference details (Volume number and issue number, page number etc.)
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:37 pm
Not to forget that Darwin was devoutly Christian, not a deist, and was personally disturbed that the truth of evolution debunked most of the Old Testament. The Old Testament deserves to be debunked 'cause it is mostly a lot of made-up bunk drawn from many mythologies that also have found their way into nearly every other religion, including, incidentally The Rosicrucians.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 02:08 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
So, where is this link to this Nature article you prepose? Nature has an extensive online catalogue that can be searched for via PubMed. Provide the link, Mr. "Real Life" or at least the proper reference details (Volume number and issue number, page number etc.)


The Nature survey has been cited by National Geographic and also by the National Center for Science Education (an evolutionist organization) , but I do not have the catalogue #.

I have to say, I felt I could trust their characterization and citation of the article as most likely being accurate (or at the very least without being slanted toward creationism) without feeling the need to check up on them. But knock yourself out.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 02:38 pm
Hi Real Life,

Why is belief in the supernatural more convincing to you than evolution?
0 Replies
 
 

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