Evolution? How?

It has been a hoot watching the IDers in Dover try to extract themselves from their error in judgement. Theyve latched too closely to the religious doctrine of What constitutes Intelligent Design and are being shown to be what they are, hypocrites who sre now trying to weasel out of the trap theyve laid for themselves.
I dont think the court will have too much trouble separating what is science and what is a "made up" set of circumstances to do an end run around the US SUpreme Court.

And Dembski himself was heavily quoted freom a paper that exposed him for what he really believes should be taught in high school science.
Once in a while some zealot or pseudo scientist tries to throw some phoney theory at us in hopes that itll get a following. Usually, like cold fu8sion or Sinpoteryx, some other scientists
show the error and we pillory the culprit and move on. Whereas the IDers and the Creationists all stick with their stories no matter what data confronts them. Like Momma Angel, many dont even understand what constitutes evidence , or that facts and evidence alone are used to support theories. Im really kind of amazed at the tack that this whole discussion has taken. ALthough it is quite entertaining, its a useless enterprise .

Most science teachers dont give a rats ass whether you BELIEVE in anything they teach. They do want you to understand it because they have this foolish notion that many of their students will go on to become great doctors or microbiologists or (in my case) famous structural geologists. However If one chooses to remain ignorant of what science says, more the pity, and so we slowly slide backwards into the Dark Ages where religion ruled all endeavors. However, if you continue wallowing in your self delusions and ignorance of facts( please sdont feel bad when your kids dont get accepted into a science program or medicine at a University.eg Please tell me what constitutes proof PUHLEEZE).
No wonder the rest of the first world is eating our lunch, were still stuck in Byzantium arguing about how many F**kin angels can dance on the head of a pin

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Frank, Did I ever mention the fact that your style of debate deserves five stars? You have the right skills and knowledge to debate; 1) patience, 2) knowledge of the topic, 3) statement by statement response, 4) don't allow any response that do not meet the simplest rules of logic, and 5) you have the persistence of a bulldog.

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Momma Angel wrote:

So, you think some think that it was just a con made up to be passed through time? I am being serious here. Do you really think that some think that? I am very curious as to why would someone would even do that?

Done to start a religion? To secure fame? As a lark? Why they did it is not important. IF they did it for that reason is. I grow tired of having all of my questions responded to by "It's god this, or god that." Can you see how this can be frustrating to those that don't believe in god?

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Questioner, Finally caught on to their no logic, no substance posts, heh? LOL Welcome to the wiser club.

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Questioner,

Yes, I can see how it might be frustrating. Can't you see how it might be frustrating that no matter how we answer the answers are never satisfactory? All we can do is tell you what we believe, what we know, what we feel, and what our life experiences are. So, and I mean this in the nicest way, if you are tired of getting the same answers, then why do you keep asking the same questions?

Farmerman Wrote:

Quote:

Like Momma Angel, many dont even understand what constitutes evidence, or that facts and evidence alone are used to support theories.

Note to self: Add don't understand what constitutes evidence to your long list of what you do and do not know, oh yeah, add ignorant too.

I don't get frustrated because I get asked questions about my faith. I don't get frustrated because others don't believe what I believe. I do get frustrated and yes, often angry, when someone else uses statements like you just used, Farmerman. I am glad that you are so intelligent and you are so well versed in all things that you feel you can label me the way you have. So, you are maybe more educated than I am. This means what?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Questioner,

Yes, I can see how it might be frustrating. Can't you see how it might be frustrating that no matter how we answer the answers are never satisfactory? All we can do is tell you what we believe, what we know, what we feel, and what our life experiences are. So, and I mean this in the nicest way, if you are tired of getting the same answers, then why do you keep asking the same questions?

The same questions keep coming in because of statements/questions like this:

Momma Angel wrote:

I would like to ask you a question. Why is it that you would accept the writings of even non-published works over the Bible? The Bible has always been the most sold and widely known book there ever was. I just don't understand why you would take the word of man over the word of God.

Take the word of man over the word of God. For believers this statement is all well and good. For non-believers it is extremely presumptious. When questions are asked about your faith, answer with the dogma that you learn in the church. That is fully acceptable. But in the course of a debate uttering a statement like that is ridiculous. What is god that an athiest, agnostic or straight disbeliever should give a care?

In short, your answers aren't answers. They're religious dodges that have been handed down for generations. "I believe because god is good. You can't take the word of scientists over the bible because god wrote the bible." To a non believer that is strict bull, and borders on insulting.

You make good points. You can argue using something other than some supposedly sacred book as a reference. Your point about scientists getting it wrong before was valid. But you lose all credibility when you begin quoting the bible as the end-all justification for the world. It isn't. Never will be.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank, Did I ever mention the fact that your style of debate deserves five stars? You have the right skills and knowledge to debate; 1) patience, 2) knowledge of the topic, 3) statement by statement response, 4) don't allow any response that do not meet the simplest rules of logic, and 5) you have the persistence of a bulldog.

Thank you, ci.

I ain't going anywhere!

I am sure both MA and Intrepid are decent, well-intentioned people...but there is absolutely no way I am going to allow comments like "I KNOW there is a GOD" to stand unchallenged to the nth degree. If either or both want to suppose this has to do with a compulsion on my part "to be right"...let 'em.

I am sure they would just love to let that statement sit out there...and end this discussion with them having shown that there has got to be a GOD....because they KNOW it.

We've got a long way to go on this thing.

Stick around. It will definitely be enjoyable.

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Momma. Then I have the good common sense to not wade too deeply into conversations where the title "Evolution -How?" doesnt ask "Why do I believe in a SUpreme Being"
You havent even done a half baked job of sewing up your very thoughts on the subject. Youre too busy tring to proselytize, and youre doing a terrible job of it.
You are pretty much talking around most people and youre busy becoming offended because people dont just jump on your Revelation Bandwagon.
Ive just gently chided you with a slight . Ive not been mean spirited. Im just trying to state that the tone of this entire dicussion has degraded quite a bit.
Your comment about "what constitutes proof" was me, mouth agape, wondering how you see the natural world.
If you wish not to accept anthing in science FINE. However, I wouldnt spend alot of time shouting out my ignorance at the same time Im taking pot shots at the opposition. It destroys your credibility.
Sort -of-Like, never reviewing a movie unless youve seen it DOnt ever discuss what is, or is not scientific, until youve learned a bit of it.

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Well, if any of you think this is going to be enjoyable, I want no part of it. If you think making fun of me is enjoyable, I want no part of that.

I have not been rude to those in this thread, except for C.I., and that was after considerable provocation. And when I finally did get upset then I have my faith thrown back in my face. I have been pushed and pushed with antagonizing words. I am not going to be pushed any further. Why would I want to hang around where people get patted on the back for demeaning others?

Call it what you want. Call me chicken, call it squash for all I care.

I think more of myself than to keep putting my self-respect up for potshots.

This, of course, does not apply to every single person in this thread. The ones that it does apply to KNOW who they are.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Well, if any of you think this is going to be enjoyable, I want no part of it.

Unusual thinking here, MA. I always enjoy my sessions on A2K...and this should be no different.

And...I think I have more than enough in the way of logical argument to counter the nonsense about "I KNOW there is a God" and "I KNOW that God is perfect."

It will be enjoyable to present it...and it will be enjoyable to watch.

Quote:

If you think making fun of me is enjoyable, I want no part of that.

I have absolutely no intention of making fun of you. I intend to show that your comments are ill-advised...and false!

Quote:

I have not been rude to those in this thread, except for C.I., and that was after considerable provocation. And when I finally did get upset then I have my faith thrown back in my face. I have been pushed and pushed with antagonizing words. I am not going to be pushed any further. Why would I want to hang around where people get patted on the back for demeaning others?

I do not intend to demean you or be rude to you. I intend to argue the question of whether or not you KNOW the things you claim to know.

Quote:

This, of course, does not apply to every single person in this thread. The ones that it does apply to KNOW who they are.

Well...the ethical thing to do would be to name the people to whom you are addressing your remarks.

Do it.

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momma angel

Quote:

Why would I want to hang around where people get patted on the back for demeaning others?

I have no patience with active ignorance. Im usually quite patient. I enjoy discussions with Real Life, because he starts with a premise of discounting evidence. You are one of those myriads who, neither understanding, nor understanding that they dont understand at all, doesnt let that stop them from engaging in discussions where , even totally outgunned, will continue a mantra based on popular Christian Fundamentalist Dogma. We know your points but they are severely lacking in logical presentation. You miss what ci said and then dump on him.You state that you see your God in everything , and when questioned "howzat?" you begin snivveling.
If you believe , as I said before, THATS FINE, but you still dont UNDERSTAND the points that others have made Its as if you have a blindfold on as you repeat your mantras in hopes that something will stick.
(Thats what I mean by active ignorance)

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farmerman wrote:

momma angel
Quote:
Why would I want to hang around where people get patted on the back for demeaning others?

I have no patience with active ignorance. Im usually quite patient. I enjoy discussions with Real Life, because he starts with a premise of discounting evidence. You are one of those myriads who, neither understanding, nor understanding that they dont understand at all, doesnt let that stop them from engaging in discussions where , even totally outgunned, will continue a mantra based on popular Christian Fundamentalist Dogma. We know your points but they are severely lacking in logical presentation. You miss what ci said and then dump on him.You state that you see your God in everything , and when questioned "howzat?" you begin snivveling.
If you believe , as I said before, THATS FINE, but you still dont UNDERSTAND the points that others have made Its as if you have a blindfold on as you repeat your mantras in hopes that something will stick.
(Thats what I mean by active ignorance)

Farmerman,

I don't feel a need to engage in a tit for tat with you either. If you don't like the way I post or what I post then don't read it. Just as I will skip over yours if that is what I feel.

It just befuddles me that so many jump on the bandwagon to defend someone when they are being told what they are doing is offensive. That's what angers me the most. It just appears that some will not even admit one iota that they may have been offensive. It's always the person it was aimed at is being too sensitive, etc.

I am only talking about common courtesy and it is dismissed.

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farmerman wrote:

They do want you to understand it because they have this foolish notion that many of their students will go on to become great doctors or microbiologists or (in my case) famous structural geologists.

Is there such a thing as a famous structural geologist?

Don't get me wrong FM, you're top notch on my list Wink

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ros, J Tuzo Wilson, A canadian who, after many years of screwing around with magnetics and structure came upon a theory we call Plate Tectonics.
There are many more , too.

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rosborne, I can recommend a book written by Simon Winchester, "The Map That Changed The World," about William Smith, the father of geology.

I can guarantee only one thing; you'll learn about one of the most interesting personalities of geology.

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Momma Angel wrote:

It just befuddles me that so many jump on the bandwagon to defend someone when they are being told what they are doing is offensive. That's what angers me the most. It just appears that some will not even admit one iota that they may have been offensive. It's always the person it was aimed at is being too sensitive, etc.

I am only talking about common courtesy and it is dismissed.

Would you mind naming those that have offended you? I'm curious if my name appears on that list.

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MA

Quote:

It just befuddles me that so many jump on the bandwagon to defend someone when they are being told what they are doing is offensive. That's what angers me the most. It just appears that some will not even admit one iota that they may have been offensive

The person of whom youve spoken is not discourteous , the person is interested in a lot of subjects and gives consideration to all points of view , when presented logically. I feel that he , like I, am tired of hearing Fundamentalist tripe in what was a relatively active and often aggressive discussion. Weve been talking for (I really dont know how many pages-so many that the original author has been transferred to another country).
I dont mind discussing the shortcomings of science in an attempt to maybe reach some common understanding between religious views and how they can be complementary to science.
Believe me, Im not here to dissuade anybody of their beliefs or findings. I do get frustrated when Fundamentalist views (which I do despise as shallow, vapid, and dogmatic) become the issue of discussion. Then I try my damndest to sweep the floor.

I dont care if you dont answer my posts , I will speak up when I feel that something too egregious to ignore needs some dusting

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Questioner wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

It just befuddles me that so many jump on the bandwagon to defend someone when they are being told what they are doing is offensive. That's what angers me the most. It just appears that some will not even admit one iota that they may have been offensive. It's always the person it was aimed at is being too sensitive, etc.

I am only talking about common courtesy and it is dismissed.

Would you mind naming those that have offended you? I'm curious if my name appears on that list.

Questioner,

In no way whatsoever have you offended me. You have discussed things with me very civilly and I appreciate it.

I will not converse with C.I., because of his offensive language and tone with me. Farmerman made it pretty clear to me he just thinks I'm ignorant. Frank has been so much nicer to me than he used to be and I don't want that to change with him.

I just have a hard time with why some people think they don't need to be courteous with others. I wasn't brought up that way.

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MA

Quote:

Farmerman made it pretty clear to me he just thinks I'm ignorant.

Lets get it crrect, I said ACTIVELY IGNORANT. We are all ignorant, I revel in mine cause its what I do for a living. Why study what you already know.
ACTIVE IGNORANCE is the state of being shown that beating ones head against a wall is not in ones best interest, but nonetheless, one continues beating ones head against the wall because thats what one does.

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farmerman wrote:

MA
Quote:
Farmerman made it pretty clear to me he just thinks I'm ignorant.

Lets get it crrect, I said ACTIVELY IGNORANT. We are all ignorant, I revel in mine cause its what I do for a living. Why study what you already know.
ACTIVE IGNORANCE is the state of being shown that beating ones head against a wall is not in ones best interest, but nonetheless, one continues beating ones head against the wall because thats what one does.

Well, I can look out for my own interests. You do not know anything about me and I know nothing about you.

And you don't have to admit it was offensive. It was offensive to me. And I have nothing else to say about it.

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